Intro Music
  

Tyler Finn 

Some careers evolve step by step. Others evolve by seeing what's needed next and building it from scratch today on the abstract here in Las Vegas at CLOC, I am joined by Adam Becker, Director of Legal operations at cockroach labs, and one of CLOC's board members as well. So thank you for having us.

Adam Becker 

Thank you for inviting me to your lovely studio here in Las Vegas,

Tyler Finn

Adam has one of the most interesting career arcs in legal starting as an IP associate at Skadden, then shifting into talent and attorney development, growing into legal ops leadership roles at big companies like MetLife and endeavor. And now as we're going to talk about building legal ops from the ground up at an exciting company in database technology, we're going to talk today about your journey through law operations leadership and how legal ops professionals are really redefining modern legal departments and how they scale and thrive. Sound like too high of billing, or just the right billing for our conversation,

Adam Becker

Probably too high. Let's see how far we get. But probably, you know, let's see. Let's see if I can meet this very high expectation that you have set.

Tyler Finn 

Excellent. Okay, I do want to ask you a few questions about your career before we get to cockroach, because it's an interesting arc. Were there early experiences working as an attorney that maybe planted the seeds for this move into more formal ops leadership roles? Like, how did this kind of come about? 

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Adam Becker 

That's an interesting question. You know, probably not. Obviously, I never intended to, kind of, I would never have envisioned this being the direction I took. Now, when you look back at things, and this will actually, maybe something will come up later, when I talk about, when I talk to lawyers now who want to get into kind of this area, yes, when you look back at things, you know, it's a joke. I wasn't a very good litigator, because I would look, I'd get the situation, I'm like, Oh, we can resolve this as a way to fix this. We can streamline this whole thing, right? So maybe there was something in there, inherently, but probably, maybe not the best litigator, yeah? Because I was always looking for, like, the way to make this better, yeah. And then that included both the situation, but also how we handle it. You know, at the time it was, you know, obviously not as advanced as it is now. So you look back, there were like, clues, but they weren't clues that would ever leave somebody to think, Oh, well, I'm really into the process side of this, so I'm going to go do X, Y and Z. It just wasn't really on the radar screen, and it took a while to kind of have that come out? Yeah,

Tyler Finn 

I actually, I want to talk about that, right? Like the making these leaps attorney talent ops, I think you've alluded to the fact that maybe, like, some attorneys aren't totally comfortable pitching themselves for a role that isn't in their clear swim lane, right? Even though skills are very transferable. How have you thought about that in your own career?

Adam Becker 

I've never thought about that in my own career. Once I broke the lawyer mold, yeah, and it's a really hard mold to break. There is kind of, I don't know why this is I mean, lawyers are so educated and, you know, the intelligence level across the board is just so high, and especially litigators, right? They come out, they're so sure themselves, and they can really sell their stories. And when it comes to themselves, a lot of lawyers, and I don't want to stereotype the whole crew, feel like they do what they do, and they don't know how to do anything else. So, you know, I'm gonna, I'm an employment litigator, and so my next job will be in employment, and it's, it doesn't have to be that way, right? People are either comfortable with it, or it's something in the training and how they're conditioned, or it's just this very practical consideration of, well, I've come this far with this expertise, so I will continue to grow and capitalize on it, which also makes perfect sense. But a lot of lawyers over over that I've spoken to over time feel kind of stuck with where they are, and they don't know that they can do anything else. So I think a lot's changed in the past few years, and people are a little bit more open to it. But the skill, the transferable skill set, which people in most of the world say, Yeah, you know, this is directly relatable to what we do here. In this way, lawyers sometimes have a hard time with that, yeah, and I probably did back then too. I probably viewed the transition as a related but totally new job, which it is, but there were transferable skills. With that. Said, there were a lot of skills I simply didn't have yet sure how to develop. But I think in general, a lot of people have more value, value and skills, and they immediately realize when they are looking to pivot in their careers.  

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Tyler Finn 

Do you think that successful? I mean, we don't have to talk like deeply about navigating. We're gonna get you, Cody into the interview process. But when you're when you're approaching a new job, maybe like when you were thinking about, Okay, I'm gonna move into my first legal ops job and out of a firm and go in house. And I don't know, is it confidence? Like, how did you prepare yourself for these sort of moments of transition or inflection in your career.

Adam Becker  

I think there was a degree of confidence, but I think I've also always been confidently curious about things, and I've talked about curiosity with other folks. For curiosity, I think it's one of the most important traits in legal ops and probably in all careers, when you get down to it. So there have been times in my professional career where something has come to me and I had to  decide to take it or not. And then there have been times when I've gone for something, and I do think it's beneficial to be a little bit more confident when you're going after something new, because you're really trying to, you know, not sell yourself, but show that you can do what the challenges are and different from what you've done before. Legal ops was a little bit different, because the first time it came to me as really something to explore with the job I did not get. 

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Tyler Finn 

Oh, interesting. 

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It was a friend saying, please apply for this job at my company. And I said, I don't know what this is. I've never heard of this. And he said, look at the job description. And there were 10 or 12 things on there, eight of which I had done okay. And I said, I've done 8 out of 12. I'm confident enough to have this conversation. I didn't know what this was. It would be pretty cool. And I learned a lot through that process. Unfortunately, the four that I didn't have were the four priorities at this general counsel. So I did not get that job, and that GC was very nice about it. I think you can do this, but I really need X, Y and Z right now, it makes perfect sense. I've never done that work at a law firm that's done for me. And then I spent the next year learning how to at least start doing that. I knew I never able to do it was but learning more about legal ops. And then I went into that stage of my purposeful career transition a little bit more confidently, knowing that I had to say there are certain things I have done. I would never be untruthful about that, but here's what I've done to learn about them now or prepare, or how I've done similar whatever it may be in the past.

Tyler Finn 

I want to talk about cockroach in a second, but I don't want to totally pass over like working in large organizations as well MetLife endeavor. How did you think about sort of the scope of legal ops and the impact that legal ops could have in a really quite large sort of legal department and in a very large sort of matrixed organization.

Adam Becker
It's interesting. I think that that's a good question. And I don't think I went into Metlife thinking about the impact I could have on the legal organization. I think I went in there going, this is a job that I'm right for, and I get to go in house and learn a lot of stuff. And I think that's what I did. And then I think the impact happened kind of immediately and over time. And I probably, you know, I've had to learn kind of the corporate way of thinking coming out of a law firm. So something like thinking about impact and even ROI and that sort of and these sorts of terms that we use, I started to see it pretty quickly. And I said I didn't use impact. I viewed it more as like improvement, and also it was a trigger to be careful about certain things. You know, if you if you play with the if you play with that loose bolt, just a little bit too much, the whole thing falls apart, right? So, like, you start to learn things like that, but you see it pretty quickly, and sometimes you actually see it in the way you wouldn't expect. So we all think impact is going to be praise, or people loving what you did and your boss being great. And sometimes your impact is because a group of people in the department are really unhappy about a change you've helped effectuate, which means you did a really good job, but or not, but, but I started to see the impact pretty quickly when those things started to happen. Yeah, and then I had a, you know, which is ironically, but probably at the same time, I started coming to stuff like this, and really learning how people are thinking and approaching this, so I could get better at it. And that's when I started thinking about impact in a more meaningful and different way. And yeah, it took a little time to kind of understand that, but there is a lot of impact you can make. And some of the smallest things, as we're joking about before the start, the MVPs, the minimum, the minimum viable products, can really significantly change large scale things. And I never, I never underestimate the impact of small changes and improvements having large impacts.

Tyler Finn  

Yeah. This is a question that is not in the script, but I'm really curious about, I mean, do you think that people who are leading legal ops or doing legal ops often, kind of need to have thick skin, right? I mean, in some ways, sometimes, you know, maybe you have the backing of the GC to go and run at something. But as you're saying, the process change might not be totally popular with the 17 attorneys who have been there, who have had freedom to do things whatever they way they want for the past six or seven years. Or, I don't know, I'm curious about about that. I you know, maybe thick skin is not the right term. Yeah, what I'm getting at. 

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Adam Becker 

Yeah. There's a you have to not thick skin as much as you have to have a degree of solid confidence in the things you proposed and are moving forward because they will be chipped away at. You know, thick skin is probably more for the harsher environment, right, or the less congenial environment, where people will say sometimes just mean things and it's considered acceptable in house. You know, one of the nice things about going in houses that's typically is not the way it is. There are behaviors that happen in other parts of the legal ecosystem that do not happen in house and should not but, yeah, I think it there's a confidence thick skin, in a way, and you can doubt yourself, because you might have a lot of people telling you why this is so bad and so wrong, and they're actually not even doing it to be me self preservation. Sometimes it's simply I don't want to deal with this change. It's a lot easier for me not to have this happen. Yeah, so I'm going to tell you why it's wrong. And I think that kind of wall of confidence that you build up for your mind, it can take some hits and maybe be torn down if you're not careful with it. But it's funny, we led a session this morning with my friend Tommy, who I know has done this as well. And you know, one of the things she said is, really, I know I'm right on this one, and I have to hold steady, and I have to convince others that I'm right on this one, and I'm going to hold it till I'm proven wrong, or something along those lines. And it, you know, you it's a fine balance of, you don't want to be stubborn, but you don't want to back off at the first sign of criticism or and so one of the best ways to do that, as far as thick skin goes, it's like, oh, you have a criticism. Let's tell me more about it. And then that actually leads to kind of the legal ops art of like, oh, we are now, are, are we in practical or are we in something else? Yeah, and there are different ways to deal with that, but I it's not skin that's almost like, you know, they're coming at you as a person, yeah? But coming at you with improvements is definitely you need a a sturdy wall that you know you will take down if you need to right, if you're, we've all been wrong totally. But yeah, there you can. You can certainly make people uneasy sometimes and that because they're bad or good, just it's different. Everything else to change. Can we keep one thing the same? You kind of get that.

Tyler Finn 

Yes. I mean, along those lines, I think a lot of people are sort of schooled in the idea that legal Ops is people, it's process, it's technology. And I'm sure different people have different opinions about are we over under indexing on any one of those three? I am curious, yeah. And I'm curious what you think about that. But I also think about the people aspect of that. It's not just having the right people to do the right things. It's also like bringing people along with you, even when you're doing things that are slightly unpopular.  

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Adam Becker

It's an interesting question. I you know, I'm pretty honest about I'm very transparent about me, probably too much. So I should not be on a podcast spot draft people. I go through kind of what I call like, I'm just calling them seasons lately, like I've been this season. It could be season could be a day or a year. You have no idea, but I've been in this people season lately, and I'm really focusing on the importance of the people around you that you have to work with, that you have to build with, that you have to convince of, and all that, and how to handle those different personalities. And kind of get to a place where we're doing something that's great or amazing or better, taking all those concerns into account. So I'm definitely, if, like, if the triangle is a triangle, I'm definitely making the people side more of isosceles situation, right? With that said, the tech part is really interesting, and I'm very keen to see where that takes us. You know, thinking about today's keynote speaker Nancy Rademacher, you know, I was fortunate enough to see a preview of what she was going to say, enter left me thinking a lot about how I approach things and how companies approach things, and her take on technology first is kind of the inverse with what we've always said in the laptop world. We always say, you put tech on top of everything else. You have the process, you have the people, you put tech on top of it. And here's the other way of looking at it. And I don't know if I know what it's going to be as we go down this road of you know what we're talking about, Gen AI to Agentic, to AI to whatever's next. It's a really interesting time to keep an open mind on it.

Tyler Finn 

Do you feel like you're in a people season, also because of, maybe where you are or where cockroach is in the journey with cockroach like the maturity of the business? Because when you started, you were the first legal ops player, right? And you've really built the function from the ground up. Yeah. I'm curious if that has, if you feel like you know, what you've been able to build allows you to be in the people season, or where cockroach is in its journey as a company, also contributes to that.  

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Adam Becker 

You know, maybe

 I don't have, I have not thought about this before because I did not do my homework, but it's an interesting question. And everything script either good, we can throw out the script named otherwise the script, there is something you lose with size. So if I'm working at a 300 lawyer department, understanding the drug, the real underneath personality and drives of each person you're working with can be challenging and time consuming, maybe impossible. I don't know when you're working we're a 500 person company right now, which is not a startup anymore. It's not 5000 it's a real size. And I work with people repeatedly, enough, of course, on the legal team, but outside of the team as well to kind of have relationships where I understand what their concerns are, both in terms of how they operate, what's going on at work. And so yeah, there it is. One because you want to make people happy. You want to make them do something they don't want to do. But from the legal ops perspective, it's a lot easier to get things done when they buy into it and they want you to do it with them. Yeah. So I think maybe there's something to that. You know, I have a very different relationship with all the people on my legal team than I've had with others. You know, I've always been close to my bosses, but I I know this group people, and they know us pretty well. This is the case. I actually have had the team over to my house.. 

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Tyler Finn 

That's great, yeah? Like,

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Adam Becker 

I don't usually do that, yeah, so it's a different level of personal interaction. Uh huh, yeah, so maybe there could be something there.

Tyler Finn
How big was cockroach when you joined?  

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Adam Becker 

I was in the like, I was employee, like, 350 or something, okay, yeah.

Tyler Finn 

How do you think about I don't know if these two things are at odd with each other, at odds with each other, either, but sort of building process that scales and can scale quickly, but also being able 500 people. But cockroaches is a very innovative company, so I'd imagine things have to remain very flexible. Yes, right. How do you think about balancing those two things. 

Adam Becker 

I think it's the same problem with technology. Now it's a question of an answer to we, I went in there building to scale, right? Because we, the legal team, is down, more than doubled in size since I've been there. So that's a scalable thing. Everything the company does is, you know, scaling. How do we make it happen? And but again, now we've hit this technological innovation where maybe there is better ways than there were a year ago, or, my case, a season ago and, and I think it's a balance between the two. And quite frankly, it's the same thing I see. As you know, the technology providers in our world are also having this conversation, right? Are we native AI? We're putting it in. Are we integrated? Are we buying something like it's the same thing? We had this amazing product that we built, and now we have this new technology, which we have to build into it. So we're all balancing it in a way. And I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer, but we're embracing both. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say this cockroach Labs has become very AI focused, and we made it a corporate goal to be an AI native company. Yeah. So we play with AI a lot. We have an exploratory program in legal. We are using more than I ever thought. You know, I'm very excited here to learn of actually how to perfect my gpts, because right now, my GPT is overly helpful, too much person in there. But we're building it. We're doing it. And it's, it's, it's cool. And I don't know where everything's gonna go, but it's a balance. We still need stuff to work, but we are very open to what's next. 

Tyler Finn 

You can be a little mean to the gpts. You actually get good results. Yeah, yeah, that's what the research shows as well. Yeah,

Adam Becker

I'm always nice to it. I know that they've said, don't say please and thank you, but I always do. But my GPT wants to be over overly helpful to people where I've actually say only answer the question. I see what, you don't provide more information. And it's like, but I have this information I'm going to give these people. I'm like, No, don't do that.

Tyler Finn 

I want to ask you a little bit about your work with CLOC. I mean, I guess the first question would be, sort of, you know, how have you seen the field of legal ops evolve since? Yeah, I don't know if you want to say the past decade, or since you joined the CLOC board. Or, you know. 

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Adam Becker 

Well, I think the biggest change, it's like looking back 10 years, I could I see where there was big jumps. So I came, I think it was the first time it was here in Las Vegas. I don't remember what year anymore, 16 17, I don't remember what it was was. I haven't been coming for 10 years. I'm at nine, okay, eight. I'm not sure. First year I came here, there were maybe seven or 800 people. It was a very different setup in a different hotel. Came the year after that, it was like 1200 people. The third year was was 2000 so that exponential jump happened around that time, and it was also when you started to see weirdly enough, titles and jobs kind of coalesce around, like legal ops as a title and with the responsibilities that were kind of mostly similar. And that was kind of the growth of it all. And then it became like a really hot thing, yeah, like everybody was talking about all of a sudden, and I'm like, Well, look with me in the middle of this hot topic. But every it was, it was an interesting period, because I think somehow the community penetrated the GC community. And a lot of GC would say, I know I need to have this. I'm not sure why yet, but I know I need to have this. I know this is a thing. So a lot of jobs got created that way, and that's how the industry kind of blew up. But then we were kind of forming what this was together, you know. So to the to the credit of the founders of the organization, coming up with the core 12, which still really holds today, yeah, there's there's more. There might be sub things under each one now, but those competencies hold today for the most part, and that really helped drive and create the actual role in profession. And I think that's important. What I find interesting now, of late, just paying attention is that there are so many different titles now, and there are so many different areas and specialties and mandates that people have, that the consistency is really hard to gage, and that might be harder for you all when you're like finding people to talk to and their title is like director of transformational services, you know, comma legal. You're like, okay, are they in legal ops? Yeah, they probably are. We're not sure. It's, it's a field that keeps growing. You know, when we when we look here, there's new people every year they're still offering the one on one sessions, and you know, there's over 100 people. Yeah, every time they do it, two or 300 sometimes it's a lot of people coming in. So it's, it's kind of fascinating. And then you have people who are starting to retire, right? And you have people who are leaving legal ops to go do CO level thing. So it's, it's a really interesting change, but the change is certainly the growth. I think what we're all seeing now is responsibilities are growing as well. And there could be a lot of reasons for that. One that I do like to point out is that GC roles are changing, yes, and expanding, and they're taking on more. And my one of my jobs, I never talk about my which one the GDC was also in charge of physical company security, sure. Uh huh, sure. Why not? Right? And I'm like, okay, they probably just threw that on. I have friends who were GCS, and all of a sudden, the head of HR, yep, and I see that all the time, yeah, it's not uncommon. So if I'm going to support that person, there's a lot I have to learn about things I can't assume that that's the same thing as what I already know how to do when it comes to litigation management. And so a lot is changing. And then you become with, you know, there's, I think there are a lot of people doing legal ops now who are the de facto Chief of Staff, slash Chief Operating author of legal, whatever you want to call it, sure, without the title, without even realizing it, because

Tyler Finn  

As of the partner to the GC, really, ultimately, yeah, partner and the the one who's driving the strategy for the department, I guess, yes, Right?

Adam Becker 

And getting all the different areas of of focus aligned under that GC, you know, if GC has three departments under them, you've got three heads of departments who do things in a different way and present in a different way. And that just probably isn't great for anybody. Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, it is so interesting how this stuff is developing now.

Tyler Finn  

I  mean, that gets a little bit to a question I have, which is about where legal Ops is headed. I think another flavor of that is there's a sense some people would say, like, legal Ops is at a crossroads, or legal Ops is at sort of transitional moment. Or what does that mean to you? And then I guess a subset there is also, and what role does CLOC need to play? Have to play, want to play, in helping get legal ops to the next stage. So next season?

Adam Becker  

Yeah, the next season, the legal ops, the crossroad, I think that was the title of a session yesterday. I I welcome the conversation. I think we I think it's very we're in a very beneficial position to be able to have this analysis of ourselves, right? Self reflection is always a good thing. Know yourself. Why not? Yes and no. And I don't know what, you know, I always feel like when people say we're at a crossroads or an inflection point, there's a negative connotation to that. I don't think there is in this case, I think there are several conversations happening within the ecosphere, you know, strategic, tactical, whatever it may be. And I think again, titles are over the map, and I think responsibilities are all over the map, but I think legal ops people are taking on more and more, and some of that will be strategic, dare I say, administrative. Some of it will be very high level that nobody else knows what they're actually talking about. And I think that's okay. Why can't it be both at the same time? I know you don't. I don't know if those words have those roads can cross and you can then kind of combine them all. But I don't think it's one way or another. I don't think it's negative. I actually think it's positive again. GC rules are changing. Our roles are changing. This is an opportunity to learn new things. Yeah, take on more, be helpful and show what we really can do. I think any organization's responsibility is to its members and what they need. And you know, yes, I'm on the CLOC board. Thank you for pointing that out. I am a my title is, I am a current member of the CLOC board here to serve the people who are members of this association, yeah, the best that I can. And, you know, I really, that's why I really welcome all the feedback people provide. Like, what do you want to learn about? What should we present? What do you like? What do you don't like? And I think that is initiating those larger level conversations, talking about what's next, really futurism, like we saw today, I think is super important to prepare us. Some people will run with it and embrace it, and, you know, be ahead of the curve. And some, well, that's okay, but I think our job is to listen, create invite and then present. You know, one of the things that I'm really focused about is giving our members who want it more visibility and leadership opportunities, whatever it may be. You know, we've created more councils. We have brand and voice, like voice and brands I you know, I believe, on to the Education Advisory Council, which is, I think we're back down to like 12 or 15. We are 21 point. We rotate every two years. We have subcommittees. We have people working only on certain things now, like in the CLOC Academy, which is great, because people get to get involved and get their voice heard and put in suggestions. And the number of things that are happening because somebody randomly said something or threw in an idea is staggering. I don't think people actually realize that. Like, yeah, you can make a suggestion. It actually may happen. I hear a lot of people say, Well, I made a suggestion three years ago. Nothing happened. I'm like, Well, other things have not everything happened, and I think that's super important. The other thing you know, I will, I will say out loud, the thing that my friends know, this is such an amazing opportunity to get better at what you do. I did a presentation this morning on stage, and there were probably 100 people in the room, right? I would have been terrified of that five years ago. Yeah. And here I am with the friendliest audience in the world who want their friends and peers and other people companies to do well. So I get this wonderful thing that, if my idea is selected, I get to present in front of all these people and get better at it. And the funny thing is, in my real job, I often have to present in front of 100 or 200 people, yeah, and if I am bad at that, I'm gonna have some problems after the bike and the buy in. And that's happened. I used to be terrible at this so and then there's so many hidden benefits to doing this that I just love. I mean, the people who are who take the time and put their ideas out there to even submit a proposal good for them. Like, great. Like, yeah, maybe you're gonna get this year. Maybe you did. But, like, it got your thought process going. You put something together, you learn how to think about something. About something differently, maybe you explore it afterwards, and maybe it helped with your real job too. Yeah, ultimately, this is all about helping with your real job. We're never going to teach people how to do their job. It's always going to be, hey, I got, you know, I got one idea out of a four day conference that I can start using tomorrow, and it'll be pretty cool. Yeah, run with that. That's pretty great. 

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Tyler Finn  

Absolutely.

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Adam Becker

if it's more than one idea, even better, I always get more than one.  

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Tyler Finn  

But what's your idea so far, putting you on the spot?

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Adam Becker  

Oh, I’m in the professional context, heard the term agentic AI for the first time recently, and I was like, I don't know if we're there yet. I'm gonna start thinking about that differently very quickly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, that's my I don't know what the idea is yet, yeah. 

Tyler Finn  

 It's a mindset shift. Or the future is going to be here faster than I thought, or there's more here than I realized right now. Work might change more radically than I expected, or, yeah, absolutely, yeah. 

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Adam Becker 

I'm piqued by this one, and I agree that it's easy to say that it's probably something small I'm going to be interested into with this is pretty cool. Yeah, I'll have you back on in a couple years to talk. Now it's apparently every six months. Yeah,

Tyler Finn

I was we start to close out. I want to ask you some closing questions that I like to ask all my guests. 

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Adam Becker 

This is where it gets these are the fun ones. This is the fun one. Now we are doing the Between Two Ferns Exactly. Everybody knows what that is.

Tyler Finn 

Next year, I'm gonna get some, although we won't be well enough to go that. Yeah, we won't be in Vegas. We'll be in Chicago.

Adam Becker 

But they also have plans in Chicago more than they have here. Actually.

Tyler Finn 

What's your favorite part of your day to day? At cockroach?

Adam Becker 

Not going to answer your question the way you want me to great The favorite part of my day today at cock, all my legal ops jobs is doing so many different things in the course of a day that seem unrelated to each other, that are just totally random sometimes. And I love the fact that I'm jumping. I'll have a call with a law firm in the morning and spend the afternoon looking at like an intern job description, like who knows what it's going to be. I love how how varied and diverse things are in the course of day. That's a great answer. Keeps me it keeps it keeps me happy about my job too. Like, you know when you have, like, I need three hours to do this, and the end of three hours, you're like, I feel like I've been through something when I'm jumping around between different things, like, half an hour on this, an hour on this, and I feel much more invigorated. 

Tyler Finn  

Yeah, I think this is a fun one. Do you have a professional pet peeve?  

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Adam Becker  

Many professional pet peeve… 

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Tyler Finn 

Honed at the law firm over

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Adam Becker

There are certain corporate jargons that I don't react well to all right? Is it a pet peeve? There's only one that really sets me off, which I'm happy to do. But what if they do it and people listen to this, they're going to email it to me. When people say, Let's get our ducks in a row, it drives me nuts. My least favorite legal operations term is do more with less. However, I'm trying to turn that phrase into a benefit for our folks, sure, which I will come back to one of the next season. So that's my only pet peeve.  

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Tyler Finn 

Is that one phrase you have a traumatic incident with probably did some probably did,

Adam Becker  

probably something that'll give you have to go into, like the Hypno thing on that. Yeah,

Tyler Finn 

Is there a book that you would recommend for our audience. And this could be like, a professional book, but it could also just be like, I read this book recently on an airplane, and it was awesome. So

Adam Becker  

Two answers to this, yeah, I am still kind of, it's hard to say I'm reading. I'm going through, I am reading, but I'm also going through Maurice KPI book on legal operations. I've had that on my desk for a while, and you know, it's, it's a great reference guide that I like to have. This is going to be a weird thing when it comes to everything else, when it comes to management and leadership. I really appreciate the books about sports teams written by coaches, because there is something really relevant to the sports coaching and corporate leadership connection. I don't watch any sports, even though my last job had a lot of sports in it. I I think there's a lot of good ideas in them. Yeah, I'm finishing up one called coaching from the inside out, or players from the inside. I don't remember exactly. And it's just it gives you for leadership and management, yeah, and so they're two different things. So not everybody here is a manager, but yeah, I think they have some really neat ideas which are applicable. I love that

Tyler Finn 

Last question for you, my traditional closing question from my guests, yes, it's if you could look back on your days as a young lawyer at the firm just getting started, something that you know now that You wish that you'd known back then.

Adam Becker  

oof every experience, you have will add to your arsenal of skills, as unrelated as it may seem at the Time,

Tyler Finn 

Absolutely 

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Adam Becker  

And I said, Arsenal, not toolkit. Yeah, yeah,

Tyler Finn 

I love that. What a great way to end this. Adam, thank you so much for joining me here at CLOC.

Adam Becker 

Thanks for having me in this fantastic studio. Yeah, you travel with the studio?

Tyler Finn

Everywhere I go, Yeah, 

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Adam Becker 

You travel with the studio. I travel the backpack.

Tyler Finn 

And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning In, and we hope to See you next time. 

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