Intro Music
 

Tyler Finn 

Some career stories are made by following a path. Others are built by drawing a map, making new paths where none existed before today on The Abstract here at CLOC in Las Vegas, I am joined by Tommie Tavares Ferreira, the brand new Chief Strategy Officer at law trains,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Yay

Tyler Finn

Yay, which we're announcing sort of on this podcast.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

You have too exclusive. This is it, you are the press release.

Tyler Finn

Tommie has had a really remarkable journey across entertainment, tech, legal ops, community building. She's been a driving force behind legal innovation and companies like peloton, Rakuten and cedar, also the host of the dear legal ops podcast, been a big participant at CLOC for many years, a writer for today's General Counsel. What don't you do? Tommie?

Tyler Finn

Today, though, we're not just looking back, we're looking forward. We're celebrating your new chapter at law trades, and we're going to talk a little bit about what's next for the future of legal ops and legal work. So with that, shall we do this?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Let's do it. I'm so excited.

Tyler Finn

Okay, so, I mean, so you and Tom and I a year or two ago, sat down and we did an episode of Dear legal ops. But this is really like your episode for just the two of us to talk together. I do want you to take us back a little bit to the start of your career. You spent time at like HBO and the music industry, the fans Warped Tour. That's pretty cool. No, no, but like, you know, entertainment is is not an obvious place for a legal ops career to start. Did you have a sense at that point in time, though, that you might have a non traditional career path?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

No, not whatsoever. Yeah. I think the only thing about me that was a through line from then to now is I have a very entrepreneurial spirit. And my career started by working at an independent record label where I was sort of, I guess what today you'd call like, the Chief of Staff to the CEO. And it was a small independent record label, and that's how I ended up on the work tour that you just mentioned. But like, I've always had the spirit of, like, independence, right? It was, like, these bands who were, like, DIY, and they would go and they would figure out how to go on tour and how to book shows, and, like, they they sort of, like, figured everything out on their own. Then they go on the tour and they do things, and then, and then other people, like, like, Kevin limes figured out, like, how do we make a tour called the warped charm, put all these bands that sort of do this themselves. That always spoke to me, that spirit, and I think that spirit carried through to legal operations, right? Because then there was, like, even through my career, where I ended up doing sort of Business Administration, music licensing, contract negotiation for HBO, like that. All was the, you know, like the business side of entertainment, it was never, certainly not an entertainer by any aspect. But the through line of it all was, it's all very interesting to see how things work and how they tick, and to build them if they're not working. And so in all of those institutions where things were not working. I was always someone who would who would say, like, how do we make this work? And of that, I think my operations mind, like, was born, yeah, but it started with an entrepreneurship, which I think we'll talk about a little bit when we get to last trades, because so much of that was on earth when I started talking with the founders. But I know we'll get

Tyler Finn

and the founders. That's a great episode, too. I did an episode with Ashish and Raad.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Listen to it. It's fantastic.

Tyler Finn

It's a really good one. And I'm not just saying that because it's an

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

episode I want people to hear.

Tyler Finn

What was it that really pulled you into legal ops and has kept you there up until this moment. Yeah,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

legal operations was born of necessity, like I got there, by way, when, when we did the abstract episode Tom and I talked about, like, our careers that started as paralegals, and, you know, I had this career, like I said that started in the entertainment industry, and that morphed into contracts, negotiating contracts, and that morphed into legal operations, because there was just such a volume of contracts that I wanted to figure out ways to sort of do it better. But like, you know, because I've always been like a builder and someone who loves tech and someone who loves tinkering, like getting into any situation that you can just make better. So when I was doing contract management, negotiating contracts, I'm like, there's a way to do this better. And so legal operations just sort of happened to me. Never planned this. Certainly didn't plan, you know, the the career growth that were like, you know, the career turn that I'm about to take, that we're going to get into. But it all has just happened. I don't want to say to me, because that sounds like happenstance, but it's been this combination of me following passions and interest me, you know, doing whatever I do, and doing it well, and the culmination of of all of that sort of coming together, but, but I could have never planned any of this. Like, not, not what I don't mean both, like, like, right? Like, you know, we were talking about this last night, the privacy stuff that, like, what you thought you were going to do with your career, the where the turns take you. And some people have to follow those, and some people are afraid to follow those charts. Like, there's scary stuff. Like, risk is super, super scary, so you got to get out of that comfort zone.

Tyler Finn 

I mean, we are here at CLOC. What do you think makes legal ops such a sort of powerful lever for change in in house legal departments?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

Well, Jenn McCarran did it this morning in her keynote, like she talked all about creativity inside of legal operations. And I think as you talk to people here, you really see that they're they are very creative. These folks are really creative. And what is creativity, if not sort of figuring out how you're changing something like, if you're an artist, you're looking at this table and you're saying, hey, like, how do we paint this? Or, like, if you're a musician, you're taking, like, a note, and you're going, like, how do I change this ref? How do I keep going? And I think maybe the evolution of legal operations and how it's analogous with like, creativity, is you're not just sort of sitting at staring at something and saying, like, it's done, it's good. It's like, it's good enough, right? Like, no, it's legal Ops is never done. Creativity is never done. Like, like, it's never done. You keep iterating, you keep going, you keep looking to make something better, you keep growing. And I think that that is like an innate skill or passion in in legal ops folks, like, yes, never. The good news is, is, like, whatever it is that we do, like, we're never gonna be done. Like, I'm never gonna, like, implement a CL and be like, cool, I'm done. Like, constantly have to ask for feature updates. Like, like, constantly have to update based on what the business is doing. So you're just never done. So if you're comfortable with, like, always iterating and growing and fixing and building and doing, you are in the right place. If you're in Vegas this week.

Tyler Finn 

This is great. I'm going to, actually, I don't do this that often, but I'm going to put you in conversation. I'm going to go off script, but kind of in conversation. I recorded with David Cowen this morning. We talked about how great GCS, great legal ops leaders, are creators, right? They're building things. We also talked, I think, about least an evolution that I've seen where it's not just that legal is required to allow the company to scale. It's that these days, folks look at legal and say that's actually a very important partner in helping us scale. And I think legal Ops is a big part of that. You've done that before, right? I mean, a company like Rakuten here in the US peloton, which obviously experienced huge, huge growth, and you were there for the IPO, you know Cedar as well. Talk to us a little bit about how you've helped, not just legal or but like organizations scale for your legal ops work.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

If I was at Peloton for the IPO, I'd have many more millions. But I came, I'm getting the timeline so, so why did I get caught on that minute? Sorry, what was the actual question?

‍

Tyler Finn 

The question was really like, how have you being at these organizations where there's been not just a scaling legal team or not just a scaling legal department, but also it's really rapidly scaling business.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Yeah.

Tyler Finn 

How have you helped the legal team and the wider organization scale?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

Oh, that's a great question.

Tyler Finn 

Yeah.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

So, the beautiful part and position of legal operations, one of the opportunities that we have is when a company is growing, like cedar is a great example, like series G. This is, this is a growth company, not like hyper, hyper growth unmanageable, but certainly on a real growth trajectory, like projection, we can come in and look at what the business is trying to achieve. And if you know, I would hope that a legal operations person is doing this, if they're looking around the landscape of, like, what the business is trying to achieve, they can figure out where they fit into that. And really, like, if you're, if you're a good legal leader, and certainly, you know, Vanessa at Cedar was like, you're going, what are the company's objectives? Where does you know, the legal objectives ladder up to that. And then legal operations going, and how do I help us all achieve that? Right? So what does the company want to achieve? What does the legal department want to do in support of what the company wants to achieve? And then legal operation goes, and I'll make you all achieve it, right? So if the company is like, hyper growth and trying to drive revenue, and it's like closing deals faster, then guess what get? Guess who's working on stuff like, guess who's working with sales op to make sure that, like, you know, if you're working with procurement, you know, where we wrap our arms on like, so I think the real opportunities in supporting that like both scale that legal operations generalists really have the the know how to know what levers to pull to support growth, and even if it's happening rapidly, any like I think that they know Where to put themselves in to help to achieve those goals.

Tyler Finn

And to put the fine point on it, is what you've just described, that sort of framework, also a framework for prioritization, environment in which a lot of different priorities,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

Look the bottom line is, like, if everything's a priority, nothing's a priority, right? Like, so a lot of my time is spent as a legal, ops professional, sort of throwing everything on the whiteboard and then going, what's the matrix here? Like, what is the musket done? What is the nice to have? What's the wish list? Like, what are we not getting to this year? Because, like, everything comes in fast and furious, and it's why I probably, like, you know, speak so highly of, like, doing some sort of intake system. Like, it's really actually very important, because it's important to see how much are you getting in sort of one pocket that just is maybe not important. And how do you, like, how do you actually systematize the things that are coming in that need some sort of like, bounce back needs some sort of like, here's the answer to your question now with generative AI that's going to do a lot of that, like, first pass, maybe answer the question, because a lot of that doesn't need a legal mind or a legal operations mind, and we do legal ops leaders are really going to find these opportunities of like, Where do we strategize, where we do spend our time and where we don't spend our time, where our lawyers spend their time, where they don't spend their time. But really, like, we can't all be everything all the time, but lawyers feel like they need to, sometimes they want to, and sometimes they actually have to be. So being able to figure out, like, where we can put them, where they don't maybe need to answer a question, where that can be, like, a self serve thing, where technology fits in and, like, actually helps us to get that done, all of that stuff. Those are really fun problems and challenges, but if you don't prioritize, you will spin out really fast, because there's a lot to do.

Tyler Finn 

And how do you think about technology? I mean, and this, there's a ton of different threads there, right? I mean, you know, there's like, when should you be thinking about tech? There's, you know, the sort of hated phrase, which is like, do more with less. AKAs, this sort of debate about, you know, how do you think about people versus process, to stack and prioritize. I don't know, give us your sort of philosophy on technology.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

I mean, I love technology. I have loved technology. Like, I'm, I'm the type of person in my personal life that's like, like, when, when I was eight years old, I'm looking around this room because there's just cameras everywhere. And, like, I had my first camera when I was eight years old, and I was, I love, you know, I was recording like, who knows what an eight year old records, but like, and that morphed into when I was a teenager, making a documentary, and that morphed to do like. So I for myself, everyone had to write paper, right? I thought I was so savvy, and I was like, I'm gonna make a documentary. And I did, and I did it on the topic of, wow, karaoke, which, it's amazing. It's such a fun topic, right? And it's the karaoke culture, the impact of it, United States, etc, etc. So it's fun. It married, like a lot of things I like, like the entertainment industry singers, like people who really want to become famous, who maybe never will, yeah, you will find those folks in karaoke bars. But so I did a documentary. But it was like, it wasn't just like, oh, I want, like a camera. I like, had an entire set, like you would think it was my own production. So I've just always loved gadgets and stuff. And then that transformed into adulthood when I started working, like, you know, on a computer. And like that transformed into like an editing software. And then like that transformed in my personal life into, like, SAAS platforms and just knowing, like, how do these things work, and how do you take them apart, and how do you break them? And then today, that's, how do I break chat GPT, and how do I use Claude? And how do I, sort of like, how do I integrate my life and let the technology, sort of like, supplement the facets of my life that I don't need. I don't need to spend more time like, writing a LinkedIn post, like, I don't need to spend more time writing emails like, like, I think there's something about the presence of me and the authenticity of me and like the I don't want that sort of lost in allowing the robots to do too much for me. Yeah. But I do love, like me, being able to do more of the things that I want to do with that time that I got. So the bottom line is, there's just in my personal and professional life, there's simply no technology that I like that I don't love. Am I sort of afraid of the trajectory that we're on with the llms and with the robots. And absolutely, this morning, we saw that video of the software. Yes, that is like, Are you too busy to be on the actual zoom? Don't worry. Let the software be there for you. And somebody who's sitting next to me was like, That's right, like, like, like, like, to think, like, like, deep bakes and all of the problems that will come with the advent of technologies, but that's always been the story. That has always been the story the Advent. Like, it was the story with the industrial revolution. It was the story with the Internet. Like the story always is, like, but it was the story that accountants wouldn't have jobs when Excel was made. But is that true? No, now accountants are constantly in Excel, and now today they're in Excel with like, AI wrappers around it and like. So the story will always be that this stuff is scary and people are going to abuse it and do terrible, terrible things, because there's just always going to be terrible people. But if you can compartmentalize that which I do, and not to mention what technology is going to do the earth. So I really have a lot that I have to compartmentalize, yeah, but if I can push all that to the side, which I obviously do, the progression forward and what it offers us,

Tyler Finn 

So you have to be a little bit of the evangelist, Pied Piper for technology. I think it's true that a lawyer with AI is going to replace a lawyer who doesn't leverage AI at all. I don't think this is exclusive to lawyers, by the way, right? I think, I think it should be a community leader who leverages AI is going to replace a community leader who doesn't want to leverage technology at all.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

But I will, I will poke the tiniest of holes in your theory, which you're right. But you know what your role as a community leader is one of the ones that's going to have the most stickiness in this next iteration of technology, because of people.

Tyler Finn 

Yes,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

because of bringing people together. Because what will happen? My My suspicion, I'd be curious for you and I to sit down in 10 years and see where I landed on the suspicion. But what will happen is we will all adopt this technology, we will go boss ourselves the next five years, and much like what the pandemic did to us of not seeing each other like it is the cream for human tax will be that much more because of how much more immersed we are with technology in our day to day, and how much it replaces sort of like rather than texting a friend for advice, advice, I'm asking ChatGPT. I think it's going to, like, sort of force us to want more food connection.

Tyler Finn 

I agree with that.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

And I think that your role will be one that is is much more imperative, because…

Tyler Finn 

I'll say something on there, yeah. And then people who maybe have, like, heard me on webinars and staff have heard me reference this before. I mean, this was years ago, and it was a study focused on robots as opposed to AI. But I mean, you basically, you think about jobs having analytical and emotional human connection capabilities, right? Highly analytical, highly emotive, very safe, right? AKA something kind of like this, or theory, a McKinsey consultant, or other highly emotive, not analytical, actually pretty safe, like massage therapist,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Exactly.

Tyler Finn 

That's actually very safe.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Though there, there is a robot. But yes, you're right.

Tyler Finn 

It's really that, you know, not analytical, not emotive or analytical, but not very emotive, right? Those quadrants that go away. The question that I was going to pose to you, though, is, in this sort of landscape, it's maybe specific, your legal team, don't they might not be the first movers. They might not be the folks who are like, I'm gonna go and sign up and take pay 20 bucks a month on my personal credit card to play with chat, GPT at home, right? How do you bring them along?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

It's the same story as it was when I needed to bring them along, say, on the CLM journey, or on an intake journey, or on a on a whatever change journey. So the story is the same, but I think the way you achieve it is much more accessible. The story is the same, which is, do something with them, that gets them involved, that shows them how it makes their look better. That was the same thing that I would do, say, with the CLM. But the problem with the CLM is it's a big investment to see how it helps you. Like, sometimes you don't get, like, say, a CLM that lets you do a proof of concepts. You might actually have to buy the thing so, but this journey is so much more accessible. Like, for to your point, for $20 a month, we can use chat GPT as long as the company allows us to get and we can sort of see how this helps us along, right? That's so accessible and so fast. It's like, Oh, you wanted to know whether TCPA laws have changed. Pose that question into an agent and have something like, like, pull back like a survey. So I think that it's so much more accessible to show them that it makes their life easier. But I have to tell you, I've been having so many conversations with people around tech, around lawyers, around the evolution, the iteration of everything. I haven't had them that much with legal ops professionals. I've had them with lawyers, and because I think legal operations professionals are much more sort of bullish on this, yeah, lawyers, like caution, that is not like caution. Around risk. There's a real sentiment around, like, is this thing really going to replace my job? Like, like a, like, a psychological like, like, I am pushing back, because subconsciously I do not want the thing to do what I spend a lot of time on, right? And to that, I understand sort of some of the fears like I do, like, I psychologically understand, like, like, if, like, if we're talking about contracts, we're talking about red lines, because that's so many of the tooling that we're seeing in our space, right? Like, if we're talking about like, like, but the strategy part of it, the part where you're a business like partner, the part where you're sitting on an executive team helping to shape the way that company works, or that's not, I hope it will be pretty crappy if you allow that part to be replaced by AI, right? So I think again, talking about that humanist, talking about that empathy, what do people have to offer that the tech cannot offer, that we all have to over index on that. But I've seen, I have seen had conversations with lawyers that really don't love how much it feels like the stimulus does a lot of things that I do.

Tyler Finn 

With lawyers, I always sort of say, or I think a big component that it's not going to be what replaces judgment. Yes, right, like good judgment. Because good judgment can really only be over time and experience, sometimes some intuition and…

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

well, think like what a lawyer does really well, actually, and I hope, and I want for them all to be a dominant because I love it, but think of what they do really well, which is critical thinking, like, like, judgment. So it's not the road red line, and it's not that's the stuff that, like, they'd be happy to pass that to the junior party, right, like, Sue, if you think about what, like, I said, like a business strategist, like someone who's working on developing, like, how, like, huge M and A deal, like, we're not sort of leaving that, those components to the AI, but, but Maybe elements of it, like, pulling out, extrapolating, you know, certain clauses from contracts, and then I deal diligence is going to look different. You're good on, like, not doing the diligence manually, but you are also very much so needed in that room to figure out, like, are we going after the right company for this acquisition? Like, how do we position this. But like so, I think all of the strategy elements sort of start rising to thetop.

Tyler Finn

I agree with you. Let's talk about your next role and your next

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

because talking about strategy,

Tyler Finn 

Exactly, talking about strategy, talking about leveling up. I mean, you've put in a great role, but you know, yeah, this is different.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

No, certainly, this is certainly a level up. Absolutely.

Tyler Finn 

What was it that drew you to at Lawtrades, and did you know that this was the right next step for you?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

So I started to get to know Raad and Ashish, and I was introduced to them, to them via a friend, and getting to know them. We organically just started, like, talking shop, basically, yeah, and in that I would go, like, sort of like, you know, the way that I am, like, I'd sort of get really excited about legal operations, like ideas and like, I got really excited about what they were doing, and some of what they were talking about as their what they see as their next stages for their company. And then we just started marrying some of the ideas of what they were seeing as next phases of growth and what I was seeing and getting exciting about. And we started to see, like the Venn diagram of overlap, of all of those things. And it really came together quite naturally, actually, like at first date. I really think they were, look, maybe a community person or someone could do content. And I was like, Yeah, sure. Like, of course I I'm interested in those things, and I can do them. But the more that we talked how it evolved into strategy role, because the more that we got to know each other, the more time we spent together, we began to realize that there were We were sitting there strategizing like together, what what, what they saw as growth opportunities, what I saw and how I saw that I fit into that, how they really complemented each other. And I think that all of that came together beautifully. We just hyped the three of us like we just threw down in like a Slack channel. and would just go off all day long. Yeah, talking, and I think that just, I mean, sorry, like it's gonna sound so silly, but just the vibe like very big people person, like how do I viable people, you can't.

Tyler Finn 

I think two of the most underrated points, when people are deciding if they want to take a job, they don't spend enough time thinking about who their immediate boss is going to be, and they don't spend enough time thinking about who the CEO is. Just an aside.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

And those two things I had in Stage Right, like I was sitting there with my immediate boss, CEO, like, like, and I have gotten I used to say I got lucky, but then I began to realize, like, it's not luck. I've actually been on this. My last few bosses have been perfection, because, to your point, I was so diligent and sort of like the vetting I did of who they were, and thinking about how much time we spend with them, and whether or not we sort of reflect whether I could be authentic, whether I could really be, you know, honest with them. And a lot of that is important in collaborations, like being heard, being able to influence like, so I have to be able to be honest and influence you. And like, how receptive? Yeah, that's nice. Like, sort of off their day. Or like, are you going to hear my ideas and let me run with them? And I used to say it was lucky, but it's not luck. I really like search for that now, and so it's not a mistake that I, once again, hopefully will say, like, yeah, I hit the lottery with, with my, you know, like, with my bosses or with the leaders of this company, because I am really, sort of like searching for that. And I hope people hear your point of, like, when you're interviewing or when you're thinking about joining a company, or if you're joining a leadership team, like, really think about who these people are, yes, and how hard it will be to sort of like, get on with them, because at the end of the day, that is really what is going to make or break the relationship, or the wins you have, or how far you take, sort of your ideas. Like, if it's going to be a constant struggle, you can have the greatest ideas, but like you're not going to bring them home. Like you're not like and if you if you have good chemistry, and have good ideas, empower each other, trust each other, yes, trust. We could do a whole episode on trust, yeah, like that will be something where you start seeing like that company working because of how that team is working together and trusting each other and empowering each other.

Tyler Finn 

It's obviously early, but what's the sort of vision that you're excited to help them shape? what are you excited to build this next phase for you?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

I'll be sort of cautious, because I do want to, I do think it's important for us to sort of like feel out how we want to position this to the marketplace. But I'll say things that are cryptic enough, which will make sense later, I would say, obviously, it would not be a role that I'm going to be in if there's not right, like so that could be anything, content, community, the people that were selling to, the people that we are embedded with, the people that we have on our platform, all of those things actually happened today. So there's no secret there. But I think there's a couple secrets in what magic and what angle we're going to bring to that community that is absolutely a huge part of this. Another part that you touched on, which is, and I don't know that many people know this, but, like, law trades is powered on a platform that they created, and so the, you know, the engineering work and everything that goes into it is also, like, quite impressive. I dug into that that was, that's, that's another selling point for me. Like, I love technology. There will be other technology elements that we are going to certainly go to market with to be very interesting. They're very impressive, dare I say, game changer. You know, it's too early, right? Yeah, it's too early to sort of like walk around announcing what these things are. But again, these are no secrets. This is already a company that is powered on a platform that technology is no secret to them. That's something that they spend, like so much of their time on now. So iterating on that, that's also, I don't think anything secret. And then the final part is, is that we will go to market with our elements of there's a gap in sort of like, there's a gap in education, um, generally today that I think a lot of people are trying to fill. Like and where I see it in legal operations is like, I see CLOC doing things like having a CLOC Academy and having there's no certifications for legal operations, nor should there be, because you just get to this job by so many different routes, but I think that there is a desire. And also we're here, we're spending a week here at an institute where we're learning all week long. Like, there's certainly a craving for, like, higher education in that respect. Yes, I think that also is something that to our point of talking about lawyers earlier and what, what they're feeling about, like, sort of AI, like, I think there's a lot of room for growth there, not in sort of rigidity of, like, we're gonna, like, give you sort of winner certificates, if you, if you do Gen AI. But I do think that there is space there that like, we might want to be in. And so I think, I think none of this is actually shocking. No legal operations. I think you know technology, and I think you know furthering, you know, I don't want to say education is not the right word, furthering insights, maybe in a systematized way, is something that, like I do in community building, I do in in, like, sort of like with your legal option. Like, what were you trying to do? We were trying to help people to learn more about legal operations in any sort of digestible form. So I also think bringing some of those ideas to life in a way that, like we think will materialize, like, very nicely. I think those three areas will be a big area for focus in that first year.

Tyler Finn

This is not a question, it's meant to say, draw a through line with the benefit of hindsight shows like totally and completely straight and clear. But what do you think it is sort of about the varied experiences that you've had in the slightly known traditional path you have that has really prepared you for this type of role and this type of business.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Well, I think legal operations has prepared in ways that I didn't even know, right? Because in the last few years, especially, the more that I've gotten into, like sort of leadership and legal aberrations have been on legal leadership teams. Really what I was spending a lot of my time on was executing big scale ideas, influencing big scale ideas, doing it inside of the microcosm of one company.

Tyler Finn 

Yeah

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

And so I'm simply taking a lot of those skills that I've sharpened over the last few years of like, you know, wide scale ideas, and getting people on board and, like, even sort of marketing like change to people in my company via whether they were CLM implementations or, like, like marketing the way things were going to change, and then Having sort of, like the backup of how you follow through now, you do it inside of it. And so I'm not, I'm not simply doing it inside of business and doing it and selling my ideas and selling that to other departments. I'm saying this is what this business's ideas are, and this is what we're going to market with, and here, how am I marketing this, not inside of one company, but out to the whole marketplace. So I think largely because it is still inside of our legal ecosystem, I get to utilize all of the network that I've grown and all of the ways in which I understand how valuable alsps are. Like, we didn't even talk about that and like, that's what brought me to the table, which is like, believe professional and you're trying to figure out, how do you do resource planning? How do you save on money? Like, how do you how do you take all of the work and strategize? Like, this doesn't all need to. Like this over here is super risky, and like that does, but this over here is, like, commoditized, repeatable, or that goes to an Alsp. Like, even that work like, understanding like, its value is extremely important. So I think knowing, knowing how important, like, the work that alsps offer, how they can change, like, let's take, like, a GC who's new to their role, and they're like, I don't know what I'm doing, and you insert the stickiness of a company like lotrates, that's going to go, not only we're going to give you people, we might also give you some tech, but like, we're, we're going to propel you forward and help you strategize, like, how you start running this team? And, like, that's the vision I see for it. I think that they're doing it very, very well right now, and I think we just sort of put what they're doing well on steroids, and we have stickiness inside of teams. And I think that that is like the why I think it's important for me as legal ops person to say, Hey, I think I can do this, and I think I could do it well, because I've done the thematic similar things in a little bit of a different way.

Tyler Finn 

Yes. I am so excited to have you back in like, a year or two, talk about all the infill and all that you've learned. And also, I think, I think I think the like additional advice at that point in time with a different lens on how people roles the job market and how, right? Yeah, I think you're gonna have it like in the future. I'm saying people should seek you out, you know, today, of course, but also in like, nine months or a year, and say, you know, I heard your thoughts on AI and how it's important for me to be, you know, leaning into this, how that helps me create a durable career. And but you're going to have, like, so much advice.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

I think we have very different insights, yeah, because I will have changed. What's out there will have changed. That will love change. Yes, so I do. I will be curious to see sort of like will in a year or two years, like what, what has evolved. And one thing that I do want to say, because I think you have a very big audience legal ops professionals, is the the hope that I sort of hope that people take away from my role of going from head of legal ops to achieve Strategy Office, my hope is that they see that they are, they are strategists. Like, that's really like, that is a big like, that's a personal thing for me. Like, I feel that I've spent a lot of time in my career, especially like, the last five years, being a strategist and and sort of learning how to tell stories and learning how to bring people on a journey. And like, now I get to do it in a different way. It's the same skill set. And I hope that my peers and my colleagues and everyone in the office community, I hope that they see that for themselves, because that is I feel really strongly about that. Like, I feel strongly that these are strategists, right? Like they are, like, even Allison and zoom, like her title is not even legal operations, like she's running a strategy, right? So I think that there is even that shift in our space, and where I look back at two years, like, maybe that'll also be something that shifted. Maybe strategy roles are going to be the new legal ops roles. Like, this, maybe not, but it is such a big part of our roles, and I want people to think about that.

Tyler Finn 

I would say this, not to take anything away from what you're doing, but if you look at Google, like, how this come out is to say, like, this is another example. Yeah, right. This is another great example. And the list may be 10 or 15 or now, and hopefully in a couple years, the list is 45 or 50 or 75 or right, yeah. And you're a big part of that story and trajectory.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

That's very exciting. I think what it also tells us is if, if there's me and there's like, Akshay, there's stuff for it, like there's all these folks that they go on to do, either start their own thing or an executive at another company. The other insight that that is giving this is, this is sort of the opposite of my my hope speech about strategists or legal ops. The other story that that's telling the marketplace is, and this had a little bit to do with that education piece I was talking about before, is leaders are hitting a glass ceiling. And so what do we do about that legal operations? Because if they are hitting a VP role and there's no sort of chief legal Operations Officer, there's not going to be right, like, they're like, how do you get them on a executive team? And it's not at a legal tech company, because right now, that's where a lot of their value is, sure, but, but they they have the same skills and can do these roles anywhere. So I think, I think the elephant in the room is some folks like me are taking these roles that take us out of legal operations, because we have that same executive skill set. But how do we grow that in legal operations? Because we don't want to lose all our good people, frankly, right? And so on the one hand, I want everyone to hold hope and to see that they are strategists and to think about that when they're thinking about their roles. And the other I want legal operations as maybe a community or profession, to think about how we level up inside of these roles so that they don't hit the sort of VP lesson.

Tyler Finn 

You've given me a new question to ask my podcast guests,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Great. like so there's an angle, and there's a problem we should all go fix.

Tyler Finn 

I love that. Okay, as we start to close out, I want to ask you my traditional closing questions for my guests. The first is, what your favorite part today is like, literally, today, no, like day to day, like your day to day. This may change, I guess.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

So, so, so I and I'm going to answer two questions, because I am going to tell you my favorite part of today, because it was, but the second is, this is going to shock anyone who knows I'm very big on people being able to perform like I really as a parent, as someone who has gained, like, invaluable time with my young child throughout most of his young life, like never get these years back, and being able to be with him has been one of the greatest gifts that the universe has given me. I have to say, probably many parents will agree with that. This is going to shock people who know me, but I am a okay with people being in person with purpose. If you want to hole up in the in a, in a, in a in a conference room and whiteboard and like, strategize, like I am, like, so into that, but it has to be with purpose. Because if you are literally taking me away from, like, seeing my kid come home and like, like asking him about his day and not coming home every night after he's already like, so one thing I am excited about, and this is going to be shocking, because how strongly I feel about like people being able to work remotely. It's not just kids. Like, there's people with disabilities, like, there's so much very important. But I am actually very excited, because Raad and Ashish and I are all in New York. We we will probably not every day. So do you want to see my child? But we're going to work together a lot, often in person, and I'm actually super pumped about it, because it's one of those things that there is a purpose. There's a reason for us to be together, strategizing in a room, and already, like the the times that we have gotten together and sort of met up and ideate it together. It what, what has transacted in moments may have not happened, or might have happened like staggering. So I'm excited about that energy. So that's going to surprise people, and I think maybe people will be aligned with me, like, if it's with purpose, like being together actually quite beneficial,

Tyler Finn

maybe not with purpose. I'll come c0-work with you.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Yeah, no. Oh yeah. Well, just because we want to be around each other, because we like being around each other, right? Like, like, when the vibe is vibing, like, I want to be in people's presence, that's what you have to be very specific about who you work for with like and then the other thing that I'm very excited about today is that my child Face Timed me earlier, okay, and he told me a story that just made me laugh so hard. He had his school has a like, 50 acre, like, just a lot of outdoor space. They spend a lot of time outside. Yeah, and today, him and his friends at school had found salamanders, and so he was telling me that he kept it in his pocket, and miraculously, this thing lived throughout the day, even though he had out his pocket. And he was like, Don't worry, Mama, it didn't die because I kept kept putting water in my pocket. I was like, so proud

Tyler Finn 

Is the salamander at home now? 

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

No, well, he showed me a video. It was very much alive, just so we're all clear, and my wife, like, had to put it back, like in the woods, but we almost had a salamander as a pet earlier. So that was my favorite part of today.

Tyler Finn

That's amazing.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

It was adorable.

Tyler Finn

I mean, maybe you've already given us one. I think this is a fun question, though, what's your professional or do you have a professional pet peeve?

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Um, people that are inauthentic, like, like, people who not unauthentic, that that felt a little judging. Like, I very much. So want everyone to bring their real selves, like, and what I mean is, like, what I mean is just be yourself. And I anything I've been myself, and maybe this is the right framing. But like, I feel like it's got me this far. Like, can't be wrong, right?

Tyler Finn

Yeah.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

So I just will feel like they can, like, speak up, or like, you know, just like, be themselves. Um, I do not love when people, like, sort of want to control other people. Like, control how they work. Like, so micro managers, I think, is a is a great example of like style that I do not vibe with. Like, what I just like. So I just really like when people are authentic and open and like, feel like they can bring their ideas to the table, like there's no stupid ideas like that. You never know where something is coming. So for now, like, I feel like I'm not really giving you a great answer, but yeah, I just want people to feel like they can be themselves, also, to the point that we keep coming back to around people, around like empathy, the like, like, I want to know that I vibe with someone, not the version of me, that they think that right, like, and like, I'll do the don't vibe with me. Like, that's okay, yeah, it's alright. Like, I might not be for everybody.

Tyler Finn 

I probably use a few too many exclamation points in my emails. For some people to vibe

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

I am sure I do. Too many emojis.

Tyler Finn

Emojis help retention is what I've learned. Yeah, okay, is there a book that you would recommend to our audience? This can be like a professional book, but it could also be something fun.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

They should probably all read the book I just wrote, which is a children's book called Smash and the Braves. 

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Tyler Finn

Yes. 

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Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

It's about, actually, I'll tell you the real book I'm reading in a minute. But I really love this book, not because maybe I could have heard it, because it is about doing things and like, I do that a lot. Yeah, I'm constantly sorry. I'm constantly, like, afraid, unsure, insecure, and like, you just have to sort of take that step anyway, and then you get to the other side and you're like, yeah, so I do, I do love bravery as an entre for fellow professionals, because I just people will grow in their careers. But I'm reading right now. I can't think of the author's name, but it's co intelligence. It's about, yeah, it's living with AI, and it's a guy who knows a ton about, like, sort of describing in really easy English. Like, what this all is how they were built, like, how the LLMs were built, and so it contextualized a lot of what the technology is. And I thought that was great, super plain English. And he's funny, and then he has, like, certain paragraphs that he writes about, like, he's like, oh, like, AI just wrote that. Like, so I'll dig into some of, like, scary stuff, but like, if anyone sort of even needs to dip their toes and figure out, like, what is all of this, and why are constantly talking about it, I think it's a good starter pack of, like, just, just grounding yourself and like, where we are, and then, because I'm joining a Series A startup, David Cowen actually got gifted me, kind of riggers. And so I that's next I should be done with call intelligence soon. I'll read Pattern Brakers, and I hope that'll be a good read.

Tyler Finn

My last question. I don't know if I asked this to you or Tom not sure I didn't go back and do my research, so it'd be cool if you have two different answers, actually, okay,

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

yeah, I'm a little nervous. I hope, I could remember what I say the first time.

Tyler Finn 

It's, it's, if you could look back on your day as paralegal, getting started something that you know now, that you wish that you know back then.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira

then, um, I, I wish that I knew that executives were people too, actually, because that early in my career, I think, like, I thought that they were bit scary, and it's like, no, they're actually just people, yeah, and I think that's very helpful. I also wish that I knew then that, like, radical curiosity would change my career, right? Like, I think I was very early on in my career was very focused on sort of like, perfection and getting the thing in front of me right, and, like, checking the boxes, if you will. Of like, whatever it is that I had to do. But really, a lot of growth has come from radical curiosity. Like, something like, and this, we hear this all the time with legal operations, but something like, why are we doing this, right? Like, why? Like, like, why am I even doing the task rather than, I think I was the task of doing it. Well, and then in that evolved into, like, why are we even doing it? Is it important? Is it? Is it like sort of moving the needle on whatever the most important thing is? So, I think, like that radical curiosity, with that, that coupled with not being afraid of executive, like, not being afraid to say to somebody like, why do we do this? How can I do it better? Do I need to do all of that? What is that me trying to build, fix, do it better? So I think, I think what I'm trying to say is, I wish I was sort of more operationally mine. But eventually I got there, like, eventually I did feel comfortable enough to sort of like, I would say, like, just bring that up.

Tyler Finn 

Well, Tommie, congratulations to you. Thank you. But more so congratulations to Rod and Ashish and watching our investors and customers. And thanks so much for joining me for this episode of the abstract.

Tommie Tavares-Ferreira 

Thank you for doing such an incredible job with The Abstract and thank you for having me.

Tyler Finn 

And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in, and we hope to see you next time.

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