Intro Music
Tyler Finn
In a profession that often prizes perfection and endurance, how do you learn to listen to your body and build a sustainable career on your own terms? What does resilience really look like after a company winds down? And how do you reclaim your voice and wellness in the process? Today on the abstract, I am joined by my new friend, friend, we've known each other for a little while, Keita de Souza D'Souza, General Counsel of RISE, a real estate investment marketplace that's unlocking access to the $1.5 trillion dollar lease asset market.
Keita de Souza
Thank you.
Tyler Finn
Prior to Rise, Kiita served as general counsel of Resi, a prop tech startup that wound down in 2023. She spent over eight years in big law at firms like Goodwin and Fried Frank, the background spanning real estate restructuring and other complex deals. And she's done some other really cool stuff too. Before that, she launched a catering company in Washington, D.C., did policy work at the Women's Prison Association, and was a Coro Fellow. She's also a yoga teacher and teaches everywhere from yoga studios to a transitional house for women coming home from New York City's jails. We're going to talk a little bit about yoga today. I don't remember if I put it in the script or not, but we're going to chat about it.
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
ah With that, welcome to this episode of The Abstract.
Keita de Souza
Hi, Tyler. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited about this.
Tyler Finn
Okay, we don't want to dwell on big law for too long, but let's let's go back and let's start there. you know What did your time in big law, those early years, teach you about sort of pace of life, quality of life, dealing with pressure? I'm sure you learned a lot.
Keita de Souza
Absolutely. It was like, where to start with that one? um So much. I remember, and I was trying to think, when I was preparing for this, I was trying to think, where did this come from?
But I remember very clearly in law school, having this idea that okay, I'm going to go to big law and when I made that decision.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
and I said, okay, this is going to be really hard, but you're going to work really hard and you're going to run as fast as you can and you're gonna go for as long as you can and then when you hit your wall, then you'll figure out what's next. mean, that was literally the plan. but great And in my mind, I had that like trajectory is like five years. Again, where any of this came from, I really couldn't tell you, but there was this energy that I had. And I think a lot of young associates have where they're like, okay, they they know they're signing up for long hours, hard work, all of the things.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
um And they just are ready to just push. And he said I certainly was. I was just ready to just push, push, and push. And that's exactly what I did. And I was not at all focused on anything related to balance, wellness, any of those buzzwords. The focus was put your head down and do the work. and And in some ways that was good, Cause I learned a lot and built a reputation and all that stuff.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
But the problem is, and what I've learned is that it's not sustainable.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And that was the issue. it was the sustainability. How do I continue? and if I were to add that to your intro, right? How do you continue to practice at high level while still maintaining your health
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
in all of those aspects, your mental health, physical health, spiritual health, emotional health, like you know all of the health words.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
That was the part that I had to figure out.
Tyler Finn
Was there a moment, I mean, I know that there was a point where like the work impacted your physical health, but was that the moment or was there a moment where you realized this isn't sustainable, ah to use your word?
Keita de Souza
Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that was the moment. And you know it's unfortunate that that's how it had to happen. But sometimes you've got to get like a really big like punch in the face to wake you up and to kind of change what you're doing.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And i I like to think it's human nature and it's not just me that's like that. but
Tyler Finn
We're all stubborn. I'm stubborn too.
Keita de Souza
yeah, OK, good, good, good.
Tyler Finn
ah
Keita de Souza
Thank you. Thank you for telling me, yes, making me feel better. So what happened? There was actually two things. The first thing that happened, and was around fifth year. So interesting that I had in my mind five years of push.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
um And it was around 4.35 in the afternoon. I'm walking from my office to the bathroom. And thank God I was walking close to the wall because all of a sudden I felt this pain in my back.
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
And I had never experienced that before. And i it was like this sharp pain, tears in my eyes. Like I was like, i like you would have thought that somebody like hit me really hard, like right in my lower back.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And I was right outside of a conference room and I like hobbled, like like literally, like very carefully into the conference room, sat down and thought it would just pass. and And I was in so much pain.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
i felt like I couldn't walk. Luckily, my husband was in a meeting not far from my office that day. i call him, I mean, literally, and andm I'm like, it's not even the end of the day yet, right?
And I'm like, I need you to come and get me. And we went to Urgent Care, and they said, oh, you threw out your back. And I was like, oh. but I was like, I mean, I'm like 35, right? Like I think yeah, walking in hallway, you know, I think of people who throw out their back as being either much older or frankly, much more physical than I was at the time.
Tyler Finn
Walking in the hallway.
Keita de Souza
Like, I was like, oh how did I i was, i when I explained to the doctor, i was like, I'm literally walking. I didn't do any like weird, you know i mean? Like crazy move or anything. And she said, no, that just is what happens. And I was out, still working of course, but I was out as in, in home, like not in the office for two weeks, could hardly move. Then started going to physical therapy.
Tyler Finn
wow
Keita de Souza
And this was all me because I've never done anything like this at all my life. And ah went to the physical therapist and she said to me, Oh, this is from lack of motion. And I was like, what?
Oh, yeah. And she said it in this way that was like so nonchalant. I was like, wait minute, hold on. Can you say that again? She said, yeah, you just need to move your body more. I said, so how do I have this never happen again? She said, you need to move your body more. She said, tell me about your day. And I said, well, my day, you know, I get to the office, I sit down and then about seven, eight o'clock, I stand up You know what mean? Like that's pretty much the day. with like bouts of meetings in between. And she says, yeah, you don't move enough. You just simply need to move more. And it was, and was thunderstruck, honestly. A, that I was having this physical thing happen to me that I caused.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And then B, the cause was lack of movement. Like, Not even, you know what mean? Not even like I was skiing and some great store. No, it's move more.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
So I said, okay. And it took me a good two months to really like rehab. I joined the gym and was swimming and cause walking was still kind of hard. I got past that. But then when I got back to the office, I said, all right, I need, I don't want that soon. I never want to experience that again. Right. So I need to move more. So some of the things that I did immediately to get more motion in my day, because what I couldn't do was do less work. Right. So I was like, okay, so my schedule as a mid-level associate.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
So i'm like, how do I put more motion in? So some of the little tricks I had was I would go to the bathroom one floor down. so
Tyler Finn
That's pretty good, actually. So you're doing, yeah.
Keita de Souza
and A couple of steps. Yeah, I got a couple of steps. And I had an unintended benefit of that was the floor beneath me was the conference room floor. So I would run into all sorts of people, partners in other groups, associates, assistants, AV folks like i just like I actually like made friends with lots of people because they would see me because I'd be down to like three, four times a day.
Tyler Finn
That's so cool. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
So that was cool.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And then you also avoided the running into a partner on the way to the bathroom on your own floor where they ask you like where's something that was good. Um, I, people listening know what I'm talking about where you're like hiding out in your office and know, okay. All right. We don't need to talk about that. So, um, so like walking more and, um, taking breaks during the day, going for lunch. Walking not to the close chops, but the chop that was farther away, you know, little things like that.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And I just, and I got an activity tracker, you know, so I was able to track my steps. And fortunately I got past that and I have never had ah back problem since.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
But I wish I could say everything was better and, you know, roses from there because about a year after that i was at a doctor's appointment and my doctor told me i had dangerously high blood pressure and said you don't get your blood pressure under control you're going to have to get on blood pressure pressure medication and i have the same sort of thunderstruck now i'm like 36 and i'm like what it's like no this is not this is not an
Tyler Finn
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And so that it was those two things, those combination where I was like, okay, I really need to, I really need to address this in a real way, in a real way. Cause I'm just, obviously the universe is telling me something and I don't need every year to keep on getting something happening to me. So two times I'm done.
Tyler Finn
I guess I have two sort of questions around that.
Keita de Souza
yeah
Tyler Finn
Number one, you know, it's interesting that you describe all these sort of small modifications that you made to your lifestyle um or small habits that you changed.
Keita de Souza
Right. Right.
Tyler Finn
Right. As opposed to, you know, oh my God, my solution needs to be, I'm going to go and run the New York City Marathon or something, right?
Keita de Souza
Right.
Tyler Finn
um So like, that's an observation, but i think there's also a question in there.
Keita de Souza
like
Tyler Finn
Like, was that intentional? Did you really try to, and then, you know, I'm also curious, like, how did you try to, after sort of the second case, like, how did you try to maybe solve this in a slightly bigger way as well or or or make bigger changes to your lifestyle?
Keita de Souza
Yeah, yeah, good questions. So on the first, it's my my personality is such that I like small changes.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
that's probably why I leaned into that versus let me do an Ironman or something.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
um But also the reality was i had a particular work schedule and there were certain things that I had in control and certain things that I didn't. And so if I can only modulate like an hour or two of my day and let me try to optimize that. So that was the way I was thinking because the idea of, well, let me just leave the practice of law and do something else.
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
me leave this law firm and do something else. That's maybe, that maybe get me home by six o'clock so I can train for the Ironman. You know what I mean? Like certainly that is something I could have done, but I wasn't ready at all to leave my big law job.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
I was enjoying it. It was going great. So it was, how do you, do this job, but but, but turn some things right.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
Turn some levers so that you don't keep on getting doctors telling you ah crazy things every year.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. It's really great advice, actually, because a lot of people can make improvements around the margins, right? Or have the ability to modify habits in small ways. It's tough to rejigger your whole life in some...
Keita de Souza
Yeah, yeah and i think and I think when you take the smaller changes, of course, focusing on changes that actually have impacts, right?
Tyler Finn
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
So don't do the small change that doesn't really impact anything because then when you don't see a change, you'll get frustrated or maybe you'll feel like, what's the point?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
So so pick things that will actually do something, right? So I went from no steps a day to yeah right typically like 5,000 steps, which was not 10,000, which is the goal, but five was better than zero when I did see a difference.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
um But then also, i think it's just easier to think and easier to commit to smaller changes.
12:59.65
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
for Speaking completely for myself, when I learned to cook, I didn't start with Thanksgiving dinner.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
like I said, let me learn to make an omelet. Okay. Okay. Good. Omelet is made. Now look and let me do that. And then all of a sudden, I could put together a whole meal and like multiple courses and whatever, whatever. You know what i mean? So that's that's the approach that I take. I think it's just the more sustainable way um to to approach change again, for me.
Tyler Finn
How did you know that you were ready to leave big law then at at some point in time and and go in-house? and And how did you make that that choice or that that pivot?
Keita de Souza
Yeah, that that's, so ah few things, but mostly it came down to, and was ready to do something else. And I'm, I've always been this way where things have to feel right. And i I trust myself, you know, I trust my instinct and my intuition and things.
Tyler Finn
Yes.
Keita de Souza
And when something is not feeling like it's where I should be anymore, i don't question it too much. I mean, ill question it a little bit, if i don't question it too much. So I got to eight years in I said, okay, I think I'm ready to do something else now. And that was it. Yeah.
Tyler Finn
Went for it. um
Keita de Souza
Yeah. So, yeah.
Tyler Finn
How did you find the sort of scope of responsibility or the stress between the two sorts of types of legal work compared? You know, you when you joined Resi as GC, you On the one hand, you don't have like a bunch of clients breathing down your neck, you don't partnership structure, and you're not tied to the billable hour.
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
and right
Keita de Souza
right
Tyler Finn
But on the other hand, I think a lot of times folks find that that's sort of in-house role, especially when you're the GC.
Keita de Souza
yes
Tyler Finn
um The stakes feel a little higher for you, and it feels a little more personal. and Yeah, I don't know. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Yeah. being being a Being in-house certainly a GC, but but being in-house in general versus being in the law firm are horses of completely different color, even though it's the same profession. And i I have their pros and cons of both. Evan, you know what I mean? Like, and and this and and i'm I'm glad for my time at the firm because my time at the firm prepared me for this. I couldn't couldn't have done this job had I left as a fifth year, right? Like I needed i needed that seasoning, that time at the firm come and do that.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
But one of the things, well, there's a lot of things, but one of the major things I would say is the difference is the buck stops with you when you're in-house.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And when you're in house, everything is kind of a big deal. And by that, I mean that, that Of course, when you are talking with the team and you're working through a product, that's obviously like mission critical stuff, right?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
But they're always, they're also smaller questions and decisions that you really got to get right because they could then have and impact.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
So something as simple as, ah we want to hire this person. Do we bring them on as an employee or an independent contractor? Well, those are two very different things.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
Right? Like, and so you gotta ask some questions and what you don't wanna do is run afoul of Department of Labor laws, right? So even though this question is just as like this quick question that comes over Slack likely, it's still important and it still takes like your whole big lawyer brain.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
And so all of the hours in house are better generally.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
That's the big secret, don't tell anybody. ah But like they they are better generally.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
Every single decision is like full body contact sport. Whereas when you're when you're outside counsel, every deal is full body, but then you have, you go from deal to deal to deal and you have these like dips.I don't have an ASGC because I'm not as busy.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
Those questions, those independent you know contractor versus employee, you know, questions will come up that I need to like show up for mentally.
Tyler Finn
here
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
Are there strategies that you used in the early days as being a GC or that you've learned over time to help you sort of wind down or to help you create space for yourself?
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
Because I think that's what you're you're hitting on something that I've heard from a number of folks, which is, you know, at the firm, it might be like work, work, work, work work on this deal. But you know what the end game is and what right as opposed to i mean, there's there's always something else you could do for your business.
Keita de Souza
yeah yes
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
hundred percent
Tyler Finn
I mean, yeah.
Keita de Souza
100%, 100%.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
The to-do list never ends. um The wind down, that has been a um a process for me to figure out what, and it it has also changed as I've gotten older and wiser, of what I would use to wind down. So when I was younger, for me going out hanging out with friends, that was wind down.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Keita de Souza
Now, I still love to do that. But when we're really talking about wind down, it's yoga class, spending time with my husband, it's taking a walk around the neighborhood that I i find that to be rejuvenating and relaxing. So um it it has changed, and um but I'm really intentional about it. But there's one thing one thing that I do, and i actually did it, was it last week a week before? It was two weeks ago. I call them aggressive self-care days.
Tyler Finn
Okay.
Keita de Souza
And what I do is I take a day off of work.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
I let everybody know. Tyler, I'm going to be off next Wednesday. And I'm telling you this like a week in, know what I mean? Like I'm letting you know.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And i on that day, i just do what I want to do. There's no chores. There's no taking care of other people. It's a day full of whatever Keita de Souza feels like doing.
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
I find those days to be incredibly rejuvenating.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And and legit, I do it like twice a year. So it's not even that much, but it has a massive, massive impact. and i can And I can feel when I need it, when I'm like, you know what mean?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Like you're around really tight and you're like, you know what? I need a day just to just to release. I'll say for anybody listening who wants to take on, like, try this. Here's a tip.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
So... Make sure to tell your job, but don't forget to tell your family. Because a that morning of my aggressive self-care day, my husband says, oh, Kayita, can you do, and then lists off three things. And I look at him. He looks at me. He's like, what? Aren't you off today? You have time. i said, yes, I am off today. But no, I do not have time. I am doing me today. So I will get to those things, but not today. And he looked at me a little bit like I was crazy. And then he was like, OK. And I was like, we've done this before. Like, you know what this is. And he's like, OK, OK. And he he he dropped it. But so don't forget about your family. It's the point. Don't understand.
Tyler Finn
It's not It's not the day to hang the TV on the wall or reorganize the garage.
Keita de Souza
No. No.
Tyler Finn
Right. Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
Once and once Tyler, those things truly give you joy.
Tyler Finn
right
Keita de Souza
But if it's on your to-do list of things that need to be done, but it doesn't actually give you joy, don't do it on these days.
Tyler Finn
I love that idea. um Okay. This is a speaking of wind downs, different transition.
Keita de Souza
Yes. Oh, this is going to wind down. Yes.
Tyler Finn
yeah and You know, Resi, while you were there, shut down in 2023. And I've had a few guests on couple, at least who've who've been through that sort of experience. And it's certainly not an easy one especially when you're in the GCC, because you're often one of the last people, if not the last person there to turn out the lights.
Keita de Souza
Yeah. 100%. Hundred percent
Tyler Finn
um Curious for you to tell us a little bit about that experience and also how you processed that as you know an individual in your first GC role, how you process that professionally, thinking about, okay, what what am I going to do next? um Yeah, tell tell us about it.
Keita de Souza
Yeah. So experiencing a wind down is something unlike anything I've ever experienced before. And I don't think that there's any thing that you can compare it to.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
So for the folks who've gone through it, you know what I mean? And the folks who haven't, i hope you never do, honestly.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
um Because it is very, very challenging on many levels. And what you just said, it's you know professionally, but also personally. For me, i can recall...
Keita de Souza
feeling a level of physical stress that I had never felt before, because it's, you're trying to wind down a company in the most responsible way.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
You also have the human side of, you had all these employees who dedicated so much time.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
So you're, so, so you're, you're dealing with with them and with that, and you want to make sure that they land as well as possible.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And then all of the things, you know, the creditors and the vendors that, you know, the kind of the things that you think of. um But then you also have your own thoughts on, gosh, I thought this was going to go differently. I mean, in but it's it's tech startup.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
It's not um so strange for a company to wind down, but it still is a challenging thing to go through it. And so I found myself, as I said, feeling in level, physical level of stress, reminding me of back in those days when I was experiencing the high blood pressure. And like I can actually like, I don't know how to describe it, but like I can feel it. I didn't need to check check my pressure to know what was going
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And I said, i need a like an escape, file what do you call those things? Like the like the steam, when do you release the steam, right?
Tyler Finn
yeah yeah Yeah, like an escape bout. Yeah, for sure.
Keita de Souza
Yeah, yeah. And I have, I've taken yoga since college. And i have found myself coming in and out of the yoga studio, often when things were the hardest in my life. So sometimes third L year, studying for the bar, like there were these moments where I like in the studio every day.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And somebody said, I need to go back to yoga. And during this wind down, I was going to yoga every single day, hot yoga, And it was the it was the thing that kept me sane. It was the thing that released the pressure.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
I found myself... coming out of the studio after that physical workshop, work works work, work, work, and that really good sweat feeling very clear. So then I can sit back at the computer with a clear mind because things move so fast and you have to make decisions very, very quickly.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And when you're making these decisions, you have to consider all of the pieces, you know what I mean So, so it's, it's, it's winding down to companies unlike kind of day-to-day legal work for sure.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
So you you have to bring everything to bear. And if you are not good and you are not clear-minded, then dare say that, let's just say it'll be a whole lot harder to do your job.
Tyler Finn
Hmm. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
So that that was yoga. Yoga saved me through through that experience. It really did. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about that one.
Tyler Finn
Anything that you learned, you know, it's a very high pressure sort of situation and things are also going wrong or these are tough decisions that are being made.
Keita de Souza
Yeah.
Tyler Finn
And different people respond to that, I think, and may in better ways than others. Right. Like anything that you learned or that you took away from it um in terms of how you want to carry yourself as as a leader, ah you know, within a within an organization.
Keita de Souza
Well, one thing, well, two things I will say I will give myself a compliment I'll give myself grace and say that i kind of always knew I was good in crisis, sees but I discovered I'm really good, that I i stay calm, I stay clear headed, and I don't let my emotions take over…
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
my thoughts or even take the moment. And maybe that was yoga. Maybe that was, maybe that what that's what helped me.
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
I don't know. um But i I was really impressed with myself and, and, you know, that may sound a little silly, but I think you gotta give yourself a high five when you really your job.
Tyler Finn
Yeah, absolutely.
Keita de Souza
The other thing is certainly integrity. Integrity is really important through the process because you're, you are in a situation where you're winding the company down and you are dealing with, as I said, all the different constituents and nobody's walking away how they hoped they would walk away.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And there is just a level of honesty that you have to have and you have to say, right?
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
and And say, okay, this is what this is where we are. this is what we can do. and this is this is what I've got, right?
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And you and you don't you don't run from the hard conversations and you and you and you you say what you mean and you mean what you say and it's so simple, but it's but in those really hard moments, it's actually really, really difficult to do that. You kind of like stand on your own integrity and on your own word.
Tyler Finn
when When was it that you decided to start becoming a yoga instructor? Was it like during this experience, before this experience? Is that a new thing?
Keita de Souza
So I'll tell you, it was actually the very first yoga class that I took my sophomore year in college. i knew that I would eventually become a yoga teacher.
Tyler Finn
ahhah
Keita de Souza
and I had in my mind, because i was yoga for me was an immediate, from the first class, I was like, I love this. um And I had in my mind that I would be retired. And I kind of pictured myself like this like older woman with like gray locks and like a couch, you know what I mean? And colorful beads. like That's how I was kind of thinking.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
That's it's not what ended up happening, but that's what I was thinking. And then but in the in the transition out of Rezzy into Rise, when I was thinking about and what next and
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And so you know what? I have always thought about this. It's always been in the back of my mind. And there's no time like the present because you do not know what's going to happen tomorrow.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
let me do this now. And that's literally it was. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
Tyler Finn
I love that. um What excites you about or or what got you excited about taking on another GC role and and moving to Rise and saying, you know, okay, this didn't end quite how we expected, but now i'm going to go and I'm going to do it all over again, hopefully with a different result.
Keita de Souza
Yeah well, I can remember when Sean, who was the CEO of Rezzy and also was the CEO of Rise, said, so I have an idea. and I was like, I can't, Sean. I just need a second. I need a second.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And then I took a breath. I said, OK, let me hear your idea. And um he' he told me the idea for Rise. And I was like, oh, that's brilliant. I love it. It's amazing. Yes, that sounds really good. And I didn't know that he was going to offer me the GC job. Like, you know, we were just having a conversation. And then when he did, he said to me something that has stayed with me. He said, you know, i know you know you know, you're great lawyer. Like, I've experienced that with you now.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
He said, but I want you in this job. Like, having worked with you through the transition out of a company, saw not just my legal skills, but also my, like, who I was, right? um And he said, yeah, i want you i want you to be the GC. So I thought about it because I was thinking for a second, like, do I really but you know like do i do do i need a break? like you know
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
And I said, yes, I do need a break, but this opportunity is amazing. So I'm going to jump and I'll i'll take I'll take the break, you know, like it maybe like little mini breaks, you know what I mean? But I don't want to miss this chance and this opportunity. So so i said, hell yeah, I'm in.
Tyler Finn
I mean, mini breaks. I think when we first talked to start prepping for this, you were at a yoga retreat, but still taking some calls in the Dominican Republic.
Keita de Souza
Yes. Yes.
Tyler Finn
um you know are there Are there ways that you think about sustainability of your energy now in different you know in different ways, having been through all of these different experiences or setting boundaries in different ways?
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
like How do you put that into practice maybe today?
Keita de Souza
So I think about it as an and and not an or. And by that, I mean, i am a hardworking, talented, super smart, get the job done, etct cetera, et cetera, et cetera, lawyer, and take care of myself.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
and And the two must coexist. Because I know from experience, personal experience, that if you don't take care of the ladder, the former is going to go away. Like you can't, you know if you can't walk, you know what i mean? Like, and you're in so much pain, how good can you be in the practice of law?
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
So am very, very committed to doing both.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And I'm very committed in creating space in my day. So when I have my morning walks or I have my evening yoga, it's on my calendar and it's blocked.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And so people know, but but the trade-off is if I'm in a yoga class, let's say I'm in 6.30 to 7.30 class and something's going on, the trade-off is 7.45, I'm back
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
um back on Right. I don't say, I'm doing yoga.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Keita de Souza
I'll talk to you tomorrow.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
So, you know, it's and and and sometimes that doesn't feel the best. Like you kind of want to just like chill after class.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
But if something is going on, I'm still the good lawyer. Right. And so that that's the and.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
That's the and part.
Tyler Finn
There's something else I want to ask you about that sort of idea of being a good lawyer or like being, you know, really good at your job. um And it's around this sort of concept of like high standards or people, you know, wanting to get things right all the time or, and I think that's a transition that a lot of people make from, know,
Keita de Souza
Mm hmm.
Tyler Finn
you know it to Okay, technically it is possible to make sure there's no typos in a document that's 100 pages or you know to get the like logo perfectly right on every single slide that you send to the client. i mean those things But um how how is your thinking on like what it means to hold yourself to high standards? How has that thinking evolved over time here and what it means to be a good lawyer too?
Keita de Souza
Yes. So this is something at Resi, I'm a solo right now, but at Resi, I had a small team and this was something that we talked about a lot because being the big law trains lawyer down to the file name, I have a name in convention, right?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
However, we've got to move, right? Like where're we are in a fast paced, high growth venture backs startup. So you cannot take an extra two hours to make sure that everything is perfect.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Keita de Souza
However, you should take the extra two hours if there's a material point that needs to be fixed in these. it So, so like, you've got to figure out what is mission critical and what is, what would be great to do if I had an extra day, I'll put it like that.
Tyler Finn
Sure
Keita de Souza
And sometimes those two can become fuzzy. as the perfectionist lawyer that I am and most people most people are. And it's to keep the line separate. Now, I certainly have looked at a contract that I've drafted later and be like, you know, I could have said that in a little bit of a better way.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Keita de Souza
And then asked myself, but is it correct? And if a judge was looking at it, would he or she interpret the way that you meant? If the answer is yes, then you're okay.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
Right. So whereas at the firm, it would be, it would be like the absolute right, best, perfect using all the right adjectives and you know what I mean? Um, and, and so you have to, you have to make those decisions because what you cannot do as a lawyer anywhere, but certainly in my job is you cannot slow the business down. I have built an incredible amount of trust with the business. Where if I say I need, this happened actually earlier today, one of the business calls me and I says, I need 30 minutes. He knows that I really do need 30 minutes before the question.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
And he knows I'm not just making it up or there she goes again. You know what I mean? Like being a perfectionist or not understanding what's important.
Tyler Finn
who
Keita de Souza
You got to keep an eye on what's important.
Tyler Finn
Where does that come from? Is that just judgment that's sort of like honed over time? don't know.
Keita de Souza
Judgment, yeah, yeah, and it certainly, and and the question is, what is it that you're trying to accomplish?
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And the second question is, if you don't accomplish it, what would be the fallout? What would be the result?
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
So going back to the example of the sentence that was not perfectly written, right?
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
If the result is what you wrote, ah judge, or an arbiter can decide that what you meant was not what you meant, that's important, right?
Tyler Finn
Yeah. Yeah. he
Keita de Souza
But if the result is somebody would look at this and chuckle and be like, i can't believe this lawyer wrote it that way, you know? Sure, nobody wants to be laughed at, right? you know but
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
But that the result is something that you can live with, particularly if if What is going to fix the second part, like, you know, the rewriting of the sentence is you taking an extra 20 minutes when the salesperson is on the phone with the client saying, oh, the contract is coming right now.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
20 minutes, you know, and and the person is ready to sign.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
no no, leave the sentence, take the chuckle and yeah so it's, so it's, it's, it's judgment, but the judgment has been honed with understanding
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Risk is not quite the right word, but kind of the, well, what would happen if kind of thinking?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Maybe last substantive question before we get to some of my traditional closing questions for my guests.
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
ah it's It's how you balance this with um self-compassion, ah which I think is something that everybody, probably everybody that I've ever had on is working on, even if I don't ask them about it.
Keita de Souza
Yes. have Mm-hmm. How do I balance with self-compassion? um So I'm going to answer that a little differently because i don't think, and I'll think about this later and maybe I'll have a different answer as I'm like tonight running this conversation back through my head, speaking of perfectionism.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Keita de Souza
um But I don't think that self-compassion is something I struggle with. What I have struggled with and I have
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
had a lot of growth in is believing in myself and believing that I am a good lawyer.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
I am kind of all of the, all of the things that know I am.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
That has been a journey because for some reason it took me years to embrace the idea that I actually knew what I was doing.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
And The transition actually happened when I was going from big law to in-house. And it was a conversation with my big brother. was at my birthday party.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
And he puts his armor on. i My brother, if you have him if you met him, you kind of he's like one of these like sage, like always says that really smart. always like a little bit ridiculous. Like it's like equal parts. Like it's great. he's's He's great. So he puts his arm around me. So I don't know what he's about to say because it could go either way. Right. and And he says to me, Keita de Souza, it's time for you to step into your light. And then he walks away. Right. And I'm standing there like, what does that mean? And I said, I know what it means. i need to I need to believe in myself. I need to go into this next job with all confidence because if I have the confidence, then they're going believe in me.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And the opposite is also true. So that self, I don't even know, self-love, but but love, belief, belief.
Tyler Finn
Belief. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
I was like, love, i so that's never a question.
Tyler Finn
Yeah. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Self-belief.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
That has been the thing that has been a journey for me. And I have seen how much better of a lawyer I am when I believe that I am. and i And I began to believe it.
Tyler Finn
right
Keita de Souza
and now I know Now you can't can't tell me. You're right.
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
I absolutely know it's true. But I needed that moment to kind of break out of my own negative thinking And you one of my favorite quotes is, and I don't know who actually said it, so whatever. um but So I've like taken it on myself now, but it if the quote is, perhaps the journey is not becoming anything, but it's unbecoming the things that you're not. And I feel like I had to unbecome this person who did not believe in herself. And then with that shedding was like, oh, wow, look who this is. She's awesome. So-
Tyler Finn
What a great answer. Really great answer. Okay, Keita de Souza, your favorite way to, and maybe it's yoga, to unwind or reset after a long day or your favorite part of your day-to-day.
Take us through that.
Keita de Souza
Okay, so definitely yoga. speak surprise Big surprise. um Walks. I find walks. That was actually another thing I should have mentioned during the wind down.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
That also was a lifesaver. Just 20 minutes outside, get some sun on your face, close the laptop, like just being away from the thing that is causing the stress is an incredible de-stressor to go back to it.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
So, so yeah, right now for me is is certainly walking, certainly yoga. What was the other question?
Tyler Finn
Oh, just like favorite part of your day-to-day. Is it yoga or is it ah is it something else? Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Part of my thing, well, I've got to say something about Rise.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
was different
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Favorite part. So today's the last day of the month and it's always a push, right? Last day of the month.And I just love how well the team works with each other.
Tyler Finn
yeah
Keita de Souza
m everybody is so smart. Everybody's so talented. And it just sort of like, there's like this like great synergy amongst people and everybody kind of brings their expertise to the problem or to the thing. And it's very, very cool. And it and never feel like I'm working against, you know, it's never like, oh, here she comes, here comes the lawyer. You what mean? It's never that. um So so it today was a very busy day and it reminded me of how awesome this team is.
Tyler Finn
That's great. and Okay, I think this is kind of a funny one. i like asking people this question.
Keita de Souza
Okay. right
Tyler Finn
Do you have a professional pet peeve?
Keita de Souza
yeah So my name is Keita de Souza D'Souza, which I have heard some people say is a challenging name to say. My pet peeve, and I never really understood this, is if you see a name like mine written, It's fair to assume that maybe you don't know how to say it because these are no neither name is an English name. So why not just ask? And so my so my pet peeve is when people say my name or other names that are maybe not in the person's language and they just make it up.But what's really the problem is not so much the makeup. It's the not acknowledging that you made it up.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
And so butchering the name and then just moving on. And it's like, it's my name. It's the most basic way that you, you identify me. So it just feels like, please take the time or simply say butcher it. And then say, did I say that correctly?
Tyler Finn
Riight
Keita de Souza
And I'll say, oh no, thank you for asking. It's actually this. So that's, that's one that's one of them.
Tyler Finn
and And for the record, folks should not feel scared because you've corrected me. or not correct Corrected is not the right word, but you you've you've guided me.
Keita de Souza
ah Yeah,
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
yeah. and and i'll And I'll say this, it's like a PSA for everybody who has a quote unquote difficult name, which I don't like that designation, but I'll use it, um is we know that we have a quote unquote difficult name.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
It's not a shock to us. So when you ask, nobody's going to be like, I can't believe you don't know how to say Keita de Souza D'Souza. Like, no, of course not.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Keita de Souza
So and I'm like, thank you so much for asking. Then people then will say, like, where is it from? And they can turn into very nice conversation. Even if it doesn't, please, please just ask.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. It's a great, it's a good answer and not one that I've heard before on this podcast, which is good.
Keita de Souza
Yeah.
Tyler Finn
and Okay. Is there a book that you would recommend for our listeners to read?
Keita de Souza
Yes. So like a true Gemini, i have two types. So I did prepare for this. um So I'm reading and I'm looking at my notes here because don't want to mispronounce the name. ah ah The author's name is Alison Fregale, I believe is the definition.
Tyler Finn
Okay.
Keita de Souza
The book is called Likeable Badass. So i this book was recommended to me by a group of women that I recently met And a bunch of people from this group said this is the book that they are reading or have read or they just really loved. And I picked it up. I'm only on chapter three, Tyler, and I'm already A, going to read it again because there's a lot going on. And then B, I know this is a book I'm going to come back to yearly.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
It is amazing. it
Tyler Finn
That's high praise.
Keita de Souza
Yes, she starts, I'll just say this very quickly. She starts the book with the question, which is more important? Oh, wait, I don't want to miss Yeah, which is more important, power or influence?
Tyler Finn
Hmm. Hmm.
Keita de Souza
Right?
Tyler Finn
Interesting.
Keita de Souza
It's So, right. And so I had my answer in my head. And then for the next two chapters, she said why she thinks the answer is the other thing. i don't want to give it away.
Tyler Finn
Huh.
Keita de Souza
And at first I was like, no. But then i said, oh, and then I started thinking about different interactions through my professional life. And I was like, oh, like, so, so the book is kind of lightweight blowing my mind and it's just chapter three. So please do likable badass.
Tyler Finn
I might have to pick that one up. That sounds really interesting.
Keita de Souza
Let me know what you think. um And then on the health and wellness side, of course I have health wellness books.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Keita de Souza
China study by T. Colin Campbell. And Never Be Sick Again by Francis. Gosh, what's his last name? i'm just never written here Raymond Francis. Raymond Francis. Both excellent books. I read them yearly. i don't want to give away what they're about.
Tyler Finn
ah
Keita de Souza
ah But they are about the connection between, well, China studies the connection between what you eat and your health.
Tyler Finn
mm-hmm
Keita de Souza
Like a research perspective. Well written and interesting. Don't worry. It's not like a boring book. And then um never be Never Be Sick Again talks about what I was saying earlier about this idea that wellness is all of the things. It's your health, it's spiritual, it's your emotional. and he And he kind of goes through chapter by chapter to help you really think about these different areas of your life. So I've read them all multiple times and each time I read them, either I'm reminded of something or I learned something new. So I love both those books. We'll put all three of those in the in the show notes. I like it when my guests come with multiple book recommendations. Thank you.
Tyler Finn
I read like six books at once.
Keita de Souza
Thank you.
Tyler Finn
It takes me a long time to get through them. Oh,
Keita de Souza
and and can can i and Can I make a fun book recommendation? Okay.
Tyler Finn
of course, please. Yeah.
Keita de Souza
So I am almost done with RuPaul's autobiography and it's really good.
Tyler Finn
Huh.
Keita de Souza
and love an autobiography.
Tyler Finn
Entertaining.
Keita de Souza
Yeah.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
Super entertaining. Some really great lessons. It's called Oh gosh, I'm b blanking on the name. I'll i'll tell you so you can put in the show notes.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Keita de Souza
ah But it's it's so good. So, yeah.
Tyler Finn
Amazing. um Okay, last question for you.
Keita de Souza
Yes.
Tyler Finn
My traditional closing questions question for my guests. It's, you know, if you could look back on your days as a young lawyer, just getting started maybe at the firm, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then,
Keita de Souza
Okay. yeah So many things, just one.
Tyler Finn
six
Keita de Souza
um yeah but Certainly top of mind is take care of yourself.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Keita de Souza
Take care of, don't just work, work, work really hard and take care of yourself. And I'll also say what I said just now which is I wonder what would have happened had I understood earlier how good of a lawyer I am, If I had that confidence. ah I don't know. Probably the exact same life, but interesting question.
Tyler Finn
A great question to ask. ah I don't know if we've ended on a question like that before. Keita de Souza, this has been so much fun.
Keita de Souza
yeah
Tyler Finn
Thank you for joining me for this episode of The Abstract.
Keita de Souza
Again thank you, Tyler. Thank you for having me.
Tyler Finn
And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.
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