Tyler Finn

Hi there. My name is Tyler Finn, and I'm your host and welcome to a bonus episode of the Abstract Podcast. Near the end of each episode, I like to ask my guests for book recommendations. Since it's summertime and you might be looking for a new read for your August vacation, we thought you might enjoy a compilation of some of my favorite recent recommendations from guests. Hope you enjoy!

Intro Music

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Rob Chesnut

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Tyler Finn

First up we have Rob Chestnut. Rob was General Counsel and Chief Ethics Officer at Airbnb. He also wrote a book called Intentional Integrity about some typical ethics and integrity-related situations that business leaders face and the right way to approach them. Listen to him chat with me about his process for writing the book, what the book's about, as well as some other recommendations, he has for books that you might find interesting.

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Tyler Finn

Let's talk about the book for a second. i When did you decide that you wanted to write it? yeah Was this as you were starting to leave Airbnb? Did you think it would be a great thing to do there? Like, yeah. How how did this come about?

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Robert Chesnut

But my wife, my wife wanted me to write a book. And my wife really early or was a ah book agent. That was early. She was actually the book agent for Carlos Santana, Kamala Harris's book, ah new which i mean, a number of you know big league books.

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Tyler Finn

Wow.

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Robert Chesnut

So she knew the industry. And I started telling her the story of what we were doing Airbnb. She said, no other company's doing this. This is a story that we told.

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Tyler Finn

Mm-hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

I'm like, ya yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a day job. got this general counsel thing that's keeping me up half light as it is. out and But she wouldn't let it go. And she said, I'll get you a writer and I'll get you a major publishing deal if you'll do this. I'm like, yeah, you get me a writer and a major publishing deal and I'll do the book. And of course, months later, we had a writer and a major publishing deal. And I, so I did it while I was general counsel and I did it not really thinking about um anything beyond just getting the book done. I gave the writer every Monday night for a year. And I spent every with the writer doing it.

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Tyler Finn

Wow.

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Robert Chesnut

And the writer was terrific. She captured my voice really well.

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Tyler Finn

Mm-hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

and And then the problem really came up was that I really love the project and really recognize that it could make a difference.

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Tyler Finn

Mm-hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

And then I also realized that ah publishers don't market books. The author has to do it. So if it was going to do anything, I was going to have to go out, do podcast book tour, do speaking in order to make the book go.

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Tyler Finn

Right. Mm hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

So the book was either going to die because I was going to go back to my, you know, just be the state being a general counsel or, you know, I've been a lawyer at that point. I've been a lawyer for 30, 35 years.

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Tyler Finn

Mm hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

And ah been killing I've been killing myself working the long hours, lot of stress. I like to spend a ah little more time with my kids. Why not make the book the next chapter? Because again, I've been doing the Airbnb thing for a little over five years. So why not make the chapter of my life? So that's what I did.

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Tyler Finn

That's interesting. I like that answer. That's good. ah Okay. Besides your own, if you have a book recommendation for our audience, it doesn't have to be a business book. It could just be something fun, but whatever you've got.

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Robert Chesnut

There's so many great ones. Anything by Adam Grant. If you can go read Adam Grant's Give and Take, you'll think again, for example, a wonderful book.

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Tyler Finn

Yeah. Yes.

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Robert Chesnut

um There's a book called The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle that's really wonderful if you're thinking about how to build a culture inside of a company um that that that gets the most out of people.

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Tyler Finn

Mm-hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

I've got... ah got. There's a great book on career. um if you're thinking about your career, if you're feeling a little lost in life and you're trying to think about you know what what should you do next, there's a book called Ikigai, I-K-I-G-A-I. It's a Japanese concept around your purpose in life that I think really helps provide a framework for thinking about what you would like to do.

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Tyler Finn

Hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

Hold on, I'll get you two more. I'm looking at my bookshelf for those of you that same There's a book called Multipliers. It's by Liz Wiseman. And it's about this idea of as a leader, you're either getting a fraction of someone's abilities or you are actually making them even better, greater than they thought they could be.

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Tyler Finn

Oh. Hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

Walt Whitman for me pushed me and challenged me to do things I didn't think I could do. So she was a multiplier. um But there are a number of leaders who I think don't get the most out of their people. And Liz Wiseman's book Multipliers is, I think, an outstanding book to to help you become a better leader.

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Tyler Finn

Mm-hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

um And the last one I'll pick is Matthew Syed, S-Y-E-D, a book called re ah Rebel Ideas. So... um a really great thinker about in today's world where diversity, equity, inclusion has sort of become a bad phrase.

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Tyler Finn

Mm-hmm.

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Robert Chesnut

What does diversity mean? And and and the how how can it be? um i think there's actually not that much difference between diversity. Hiring with a diversity in mind and hiring with excellence and merit in mind. I actually think the two concepts are are in many ways synonymous. So his work will help you think in that regard.

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Tyler Finn

You've given me enough books take like all my work flights between now and the end of the summer. This is fantastic.

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Dana Rao 

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Tyler Finn

Next up, we have my friend Dana Rao. Dana recently retired as general counsel of Adobe. Dana doesn't read business books, but he's got a recommendation or two for you that are a little more fun. 

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Tyler Finn

We've all been there. I think. Do you have, I mean, you're writing a book. Do you have a book that you'd want to recommend to our audience? This could be a business book or it could just be something fun. 

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Dana Rao 

I don't read business books.

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Tyler Finn

That's not a bad character trait or... 

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Dana Rao

I do, yeah. So I just finished reading. My wife loves this author, Leanne Moriarty, and I now love her too, on her recommendation. I literally just finished yesterday, so I also recommended it. This book called Here One Moment. It's her latest book. And so she, it's just, it's regular fiction. She's not science fiction or anything. But this particular book is very fun premise in the first page. So I'm not giving any way. But on a plane, a woman who you don't know who she is, but appears to be some kind of fortune teller tells everybody on the plane, the how they're going to die and when they're going to die. 

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Tyler Finn

Okay. 

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Dana Rao

And then the rest of the book is about the consequences of that.

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Tyler Finn

Wow.

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Dana Rao

Those predictions. Great book. I mean, I actually was up till midnight two nights ago finishing it because I was so taken by it. But she's an amazing writer. 

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Tyler Finn

That sounds great. I don't think I'd be happy if I am sitting on my flight tomorrow and someone came up to me and told me when I was going to die. 

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Dana Rao 

People got like 100 years old of, you know, heart failure, you know what I'm saying? 

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Akshay Verma & Shashank Bijapur

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Tyler Finn

Earlier this year, I sat down with Shashank Bijapur, SpotDraft's Co-founder and CEO, and Akshay Verma, our COO, for a conversation around how they've helped build SpotDraft and where we're headed. Near the end of the conversation, I asked both of them to recommend a book that's been important to them in their careers. 

Shashank Bijapur 

I think for me, the transition from lawyer to founder, the book that made that happen for me was Zero to One. I think it was foundational in more than one way as I still keep going back to that book. And the second one is The Hard Thing About the Hard Things by Ben Horowitz. I think it's just, you know, running a company is hard and you need to take a lot of hard decisions. Just getting that decision matrix done right, it's a great book to read. It's almost, you can't read it page to page, you just have to open the part that's really problematic at this point and just read that one chapter and then close it back up.

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Akshay Verma 

Good textbook. 

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Shashank Bijapur 

Yeah. 

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Akshay Verma

Mine's Getting Naked by Peter Lesioni. Once I read The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and my former manager at Facebook was really big on the lessons that came out of that book. He wrote a second book called Getting Naked, which is about a management consulting company. And the protagonist goes through a pretty amazing character arc in how he learns to navigate and push back on clients and customers. And now in the end, that actually ends up getting him a lot more business and amazing satisfaction out of his work. And it's something that I'm hoping to take to our sales and customer success teams.

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Tim Hirsch 

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Tyler Finn 

Next up we have Tim Hirsch. Tim is the General Counsel of Mars Science and Diagnostics. Tim offers a very personal recommendation to our audience.

Tim Hirsch

Yes, I recently read this book called 100 Saturdays.

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Tyler Finn 

Oh, I haven't heard of that. Yeah, which is- Yeah, cool, something new.

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Tim Hirsch

There you go. So it's a really fascinating story, story of this 90 year old woman who grew up in Rhodes, which is an island off of Greece, in the Jewish community there, in the late 1800s, early 1900s, as part of the Jewish community, which was very small, and, you know, used to be owned by the, the, the island was part of Turkey, then Italy invaded it in the early 1900s. And she ended up, like all the other Jews on roads being deported to Auschwitz, and she ended up surviving and made her way to New York and, you know, lived a really long life. And she met this this journalist book writer. One day, they sat down at her house on a Saturday. And it led to 100 Saturdays of them coming together to have him him interview her about her life in in Rhodes. And, you know, turned into this book, which is fascinating. You know, it's an incredible sort of snapshot. She sort of goes through her life as a Jew on Rhodes, which was a really unique time that we're probably never gonna see again, but you know, this island where they went from having no electricity, no running water under the Turks to being invaded by the Italians, and all of a sudden, and this renaissance and being very prosperous in the 1920s to in 15 years being all essentially massacred and exterminated on what was the longest journey of any Jewish population to get to Auschwitz, because they went from the south of Greece to almost northeast Africa, northwest Africa, to all the way to Poland. And it's a beautifully written book, you know the story. She's a beautiful storyteller And it's just a wonderful wonderful story and it's called a hundred Saturdays 

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Tyler Finn 

Great recommendation. 

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Manu Kanwar

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Tyler Finn

Manu Kanwar is the founder and leader of LexSolutions, a talent, technology, and culture-focused consulting group. Manu is a real expert on company cultures, how they go wrong, and ways that you might be able to turn them around and make them right again. He offers three recommendations of books that have been meaningful to him as he's navigated in at times challenging and stressful career. 

Manu Kanwar

Yeah. So I want to give you three now actually. 

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Tyler Finn

Great. 

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Manu Kanwar

I thought I was going to give you two, but I'm going to give you three. So the first one would be by Gabor Maté and his latest book is The Myth of Normal. 

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Tyler Finn

Okay.

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Manu Kanwar

So Gabor Maté is like world renowned authority on first he was a world renowned authority on addiction. And in ways of treating addiction he found that we shouldn't be treating addiction we should be treating the pain. So that led him to become the world authority on trauma. And the way he redefines trauma is that it's not necessarily a terrible event that happens to some people. It's just any event or circumstances in which a child's needs went unmet. That creates a traumatic event that creates a traumatic circumstance that then leads, you know, that that that person to have like vulnerabilities that can persist over time and negative self-worth and whatever it might be, or, you know, have negative toxicity that I need to do this in order to feel successful. I need to be that to be happy. I need to have this to feel content. You know, none of these things are true. And so those are myths. But also the fact that there is a normal that we all should subscribe to is a myth. And so he talks about that at length with lots of other, you know, perspectives and stuff. It's a brilliant book and a really important perspective. The second one, just because I've only just finished it, is ADHD 2.0. So it's about ADHD by two authors who really made the ADHD, you know, more wellknown in the world. And they're just now coming back to say, obviously there's a lot more being written and talked about ADHD, but this is what we see from our perspective. And it's just a brilliant book for people who think that they may be suffering and the people who think that they may have a partner or a child or others that may be. And actually I think for any good leader to read and just understand what it means. Because we talk about ADHD superpowers, but no one really gets what it actually means. And there are lots of negative traits and challenges that people with ADHD suffer from that are not well understood, that people just write off, that you need to man up and change and get better organized or whatever, which is just not helpful. And I mean, I'm not diagnosed yet. I'm waiting for a diagnosis, but it's something that I'm starting to learn about. Not just for myself, but for other people. So you know, I may or may not be, but this certainly resonates really, really strongly. And then the third one, just because like I mentioned him earlier, Paul Gilbert, he's brought out a few books which are all just beautiful. The one he brought out last year was called The Mentor. And it's beautifully presented. It's just like beautiful writings. And he talks about his journey and his journey as a sort of coach and a mentor. But while he takes you through an art gallery, essentially. And it's just like, it's his life story written through that, and it's just beautiful.

And I think really, really poignant, especially at a time like now.

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Tyler Finn

Great recommendations.

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Alex Herrity

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Tyler Finn

Alex Herity leads legal ops for Adidas, the global clothing and sneaker brand. Alex offers a couple of tech-inspired fiction picks for our list of book racks.

Tyler Finn

That's a great answer. Do you have a book that you would recommend? And this doesn't have to be a business book. It could be a fun book, you can have two or three books, that doesn't matter. But do you have a book that you'd recommend to our audience?

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Alex Herrity

Yeah, I guess just reading wise, like just in terms of fiction, I read a read, I probably everyone's read this recently because it was kind of a bestseller, but Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow.

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Tyler Finn

Oh, I haven't read this yet. 

Alex Herrity

Really good. So if you're into fiction, that's just one fresh, fresh off my mind that I read recently and enjoyed. And then kind of stuff in this space, someone who's really good is Alex Hamilton from Radiant. He wrote the book, Sign Here, which is all about contract processes. And basically he's got a sort of fixed fee style law firm, and it's all about kind of the, it's all of the non-techie part of the contracting process around like, you know, how you can, how contracts should be. They should be these like relational documents where people, so you wouldn't, you shouldn't draft them in an adversarial way. You should be drafting them with the least amount of friction while still protecting your needs. So if you, again, if you're into contracting and tech and this stuff, it's not about the tech, but it's about the content in a different way, in a fresh way. So I totally recommend that. And there's one more that I'm reading right now, which is quite good, which is like how to build a second brain. So I'm really interested in sort of knowledge management at the moment. And that's kind of one of my topics that's personally interesting to me as well as professionally. And his thing is just basically just a concept for like how you, what you should outsource to a database and how you might do that and have a process for that. But then how that might then work with like a team of different people. Again, I think super relevant for this era that we're now going in where we're knowledge workers. Like I never heard I never got called a knowledge worker until ChatGPT, but it's like, yeah, I'm a knowledge worker. And it's like, what am I doing with all this knowledge and where does it sit? And how is this AI going to work with this? So I think if you're going to read anything about knowledge and how you might use your own knowledge, that's been cool. I'm halfway through that one, so I'd give that a recommendation as well.

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Tyler Finn

That's a good mix there. I like that. 

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Keita de Souza

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Tyler Finn

Keita D'Souza is the General Counsel of RISE. She and I had a really meaningful and candid conversation around wellness in the workplace and protecting your mental health and wellness when you're in high pressure situations and high stress jobs. Along those lines, she offers a number of book recommendations for our audience.

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Keita de Souza

Yes. So like a true Gemini, i have two types. So I did prepare for this. um So I'm reading and I'm looking at my notes here because don't want to mispronounce the name. ah ah The author's name is Alison Fregale, I believe is the definition.

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Tyler Finn

Okay.

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Keita de Souza

The book is called Likeable Badass. So i this book was recommended to me by a group of women that I recently met And a bunch of people from this group said this is the book that they are reading or have read or they just really loved. And I picked it up. I'm only on chapter three, Tyler, and I'm already A, going to read it again because there's a lot going on. And then B, I know this is a book I'm going to come back to yearly.

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Tyler Finn

Hmm.

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Keita de Souza

It is amazing. it

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Tyler Finn

That's high praise.

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Keita de Souza

So the book is kind of lightly blowning my mind and it's just chapter three. So please do likable badass.

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Tyler Finn

I might have to pick that one up. That sounds really interesting.

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Keita de Souza

Let me know what you think. um And then on the health and wellness side, of course I have health wellness books.

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Tyler Finn

Hmm.

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Keita de Souza

China study by T. Colin Campbell. And Never Be Sick Again by Francis. Gosh, what's his last name? i'm just never written here Raymond Francis. Raymond Francis. Both excellent books. I read them yearly. i don't want to give away what they're about.

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Tyler Finn

ah

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Keita de Souza

ah But they are about the connection between, well, China studies the connection between what you eat and your health.

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Tyler Finn

mm-hmm

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Keita de Souza

Like a research perspective. Well written and interesting. Don't worry. It's not like a boring book. And then um never be Never Be Sick Again talks about what I was saying earlier about this idea that wellness is all of the things. It's your health, it's spiritual, it's your emotional. and he And he kind of goes through chapter by chapter to help you really think about these different areas of your life. So I've read them all multiple times and each time I read them, either I'm reminded of something or I learned something new. So I love both those books. We'll put all three of those in the in the show notes. I like it when my guests come with multiple book recommendations. Thank you.

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Tyler Finn

I read like six books at once.

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Keita de Souza

Thank you.

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Tyler Finn

It takes me a long time to get through them. Oh,

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Keita de Souza

and and can can i and Can I make a fun book recommendation? Okay.

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Tyler Finn

of course, please. Yeah.

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Keita de Souza

So I am almost done with RuPaul's autobiography and it's really good.

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Tyler Finn

Huh.

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Keita de Souza

and love an autobiography.

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Tyler Finn

Entertaining.

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Keita de Souza

Yeah.

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Tyler Finn

Yeah.

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Keita de Souza

Super entertaining. Some really great lessons. It's called Oh gosh, I'm b blanking on the name. I'll i'll tell you so you can put in the show notes.

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Tyler Finn

Yeah.

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Keita de Souza

ah But it's it's so good. So, yeah.

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David Cowen

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Tyler Finn

David Cowan is the founder and president of the Cowan Group. He puts on great events for legal ops leaders around the country and is building a community of some of the highest performing legal ops leaders out there. He is a big reader and he offered up a variety of book recommendations that have influenced him throughout his career and that he thinks might be helpful to others.

David Cowen 

Yeah. I mean, books are books. Are these living things that just keep going. You know, if you wanted to go back in time, I would say, and ran Atlas Shrugged, probably influenced me as much as anything else in my entire life

Tyler Finn   

Interesting,

David Cowen 

I would say, followed by Dale Carnegie's, you know, How to Win Friends and Influence People, followed by Keith Ferrazzi, Never Eat Alone, which changed my entire business model from good to great. By by Jim Collins taught me the flywheel and how to stay true to, you know, your own curiosity. And then there's, like, everything of the moment, you know, I mean, I could, I could go on, I could fill up a library. And then I just, I think, the more I will say this to anybody who's listening. You know, reading will make all the difference in the world for your life, and because it allows you to connect with people about stories that connect with them. If you want to connect with other people, and you've read a book and you're like, oh my god, I read that book, you instantly have this moment of connection and this language. I can't emphasize it enough, however old, however old you are, whether you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s, or 50s whether you've got kids and you're busy, like, read, it's just, there's just nothing else like it.

Tyler Finn   

Absolutely. Read on the subway, read on airplanes.

David Cowen

You know what? I don't I listen. I love the airplane for reading. It's one of my favorite things. But even if you don't even have to finish the book, honestly, yeah, you know? Like, I can tell you, like, there's 100 books I've never finished, but I started them, and I'm like, I got, I got what I was supposed to get out of it, right? It's not a it's not a chore. It's like, I really enjoyed that you get to your destination, like, you pick up the next one, you pick up the next one. It's like, you know, one of the things that helped me is, like, I decided I was, this is my budget for books this year, and I spent the budget. That's cool. It's a line item. I'm like, I'm not gonna skimp on myself. I'm not gonna wonder if I should or I shouldn't. I've got $100 in the bank. That book is $29 I'm buying that I got $71 left.

Tyler Finn   

I love that. That's great.

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Joon Park

Tyler Finn 

Joon Park is the Chief Legal Officer at Xtend, but he offers some slightly different recommendations. Earlier in his life, he received a master's in Chinese philosophy. That influenced one of his picks. He's also married to a 2024 Pulitzer Prize winning author and talks a bit about his wife's book during our episode and my question about books that he'd recommend for our audience.

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Tyler Finn 

That's a good one. I have not heard that one before. I like that. I might have to steal that myself. Is there a book that you would recommend to to our audience?

Joon Park 

I mentioned the title before the Tao Te Ching. 81 chapters, that's very it's almost like poetry. And like poetry, you can read a lot into it in terms of coming up with your own interpretation as to what you think it means. It's been around for 1000s of years, and there's no agreement as to what exactly it's trying to say, but there's certainly a lot of passages that, if you are in that space where concepts of harmony, concepts of yin and yang, concepts of balance, appeal to you, this is something that, as you read it, might resonate. And I think it's worth picking up, because it won't take you very long to read it. It's a very short book,

Tyler Finn 

very cool. And then I'll plug it when we were when we were talking, before we got on and started doing the podcast, you mentioned that your wife just won a Prize for a book that she wrote. Can you tell us about that? Because I'm gonna go order it. I think it sounds pretty cool.

Joon Park

Yeah, so, so my wife is Lillian Wu. She won the Pulitzer in 2024 Pulitzer for biography for a book called master slave husband wife, and it's about this enslaved couple that start off in Macon, Georgia and make their way north, but rather than following anything like the Underground Railroad, they actually go in plain daylight, because she is so fair. Her complexion is so fair that she disguises herself as a disabled master, and her husband pretends to be her slave. And together they travel on by train, by first class coaches staying at the top hotels, and escaped to freedom that way. And it became a sensation once they reached the north because of the way in which they escaped. And so that's the story that she's telling in this particular it's everything is true. The amazing thing about this book is it's creative nonfiction. It reads like a novel, but everything you read in it is factual.

Tyler Fnn 

It sounds like it should be made into a movie,

Joon Park

a pretty fantastic movie. I think

Tyler Finn

That's very cool.

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Tyler Fin

Tyler Fin

Last up, but hopefully not least, of our hundredth podcast episode, I was interviewed by my colleague Nakta, Akshay Verma's chief of Staff. Nakta asked me for one recommendation, but like most of our guests, I offered a few. I picked three books that I'd read recently that I thought you might enjoy reading. 

Nakta Alaghebandan

What is a book you would like to recommend to your listeners? And you can recommend more than one, I'm sure that's a hard one to narrow down.

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Tyler Finn

I thought a bit about this question because I knew it was coming.

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Nakta Alaghebandan

Makes sense.

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Tyler Finn

I'll recommend a business book first. I have three books that I think will be all different and interesting for folks to read. The first book is a business-y book. It's called Give and Take. It's by Adam Grant. I may have mentioned it in conversation with other podcast guests. He looks at the sort of... He's a psychologist, like kind of a pop psychologist, but he's very smart. He looks at the sort of landscape and categorizes people in three ways. He says, there are people who are givers, they're willing to give without any notion of reciprocity or getting something in return. There are matchers, people who are totally willing to give, but it's more like, I bought coffee this time, so I'm not gonna tell you to buy coffee next time, but you should probably buy me coffee next time.

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Nakta Alaghebandan

There's an expectation.

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Tyler Finn

There's an expectation. And then there's takers, people who don't give very, I mean, we all know, hopefully we don't have many people like this in our lives. We've probably all dealt with people like this before. We've encountered them before.

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Tyler Finn

People who just take, take, take, take, take are very sort of self-interested. And it's been a number of years since I read the book, so I'm not going to be able to explain the sort of whole argument and all the research. But essentially, he's looking at like, we know we probably don't want to be takers, right? But are givers just chumps? Are we all being taken advantage of? The conclusion in the research over the long run is the answer is no. Actually true givers are the ones who end up with the most and who are the happiest and who actually oftentimes have the most money. If you're listening and you've read this book in the past week, you can probably poke holes in that summary, but I like carrying that with me in my own life and I would recommend that folks read it. I don't read a lot of fiction. A friend and mentor of mine recommended a book that I read recently called The Last Days of Night. It's a very quick read. It's historical fiction. It's about Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse and their sort of fight to electrify America. And the interesting thing, yeah, the interesting thing for lawyers, the folks who are listening are interested in the law, is that Paul Cravath, who started the firm now Cravath, Swain & Moore, features very prominently because he was George Westinghouse's lawyer and there's an IP sort of fight battle occurring. I think it's a fun read and something that's a little legal related for our listeners. It was tough for me to pick a non-fiction book to recommend for the audience. One that I… I mean, I subscribed to The New Yorker, I like long-form journalism, I like that sort of journalistic style. Everyone who is here is gone is about the sort of immigration crisis in America. I think that's a very important component of this political moment and what we're dealing with. And it's something that I didn't understand as deeply perhaps as some of the economic drivers or changes in Washington and Washingtonian norms that have happened. I read it before the election last year and if you want to understand this political moment, I would highly recommend that you read it as well.

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Nakta Alaghebandan

Awesome. That's a very well-rounded list of book recommendations. I'm going to queue all of those up later, too.

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Tyler Finn

That's all we've got for you today. I hope you're having a great summer. I hope you pick up one of these great reads on your next vacation. And you can relax, maybe learn something, and it inspires you to listen to a few episodes of our podcast. Thanks so much for listening to this one and hope to see you next time.

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